To Ask “What’s wrong with shame?”

[MoveToParis]

As a society we have mostly abandoned shame and now seem to view shame as universally bad.

I don’t think that’s true, I think it has its place and if someone behaves shamefully then why shouldn’t they feel shame?

If you are prepared to own your behaviour then other people’s opinion won’t bother you. But if your behaviour (and I include my own in this) has to be kept like a grubby little secret, then maybe a bit of shame won’t do any harm in the long run.

What about long-term implications of being publicly humiliated? Every human deserves the right to say “Yes, I did that but now I know better and I understand what I did wrong. I no longer hold these views”. Publicly humiliating someone in front of a school removes this opportunity, ostracises the child and, potentially subjects him to bullying for the rest of his school life. I’d say, it is not teaching the child anything and is likely to turn them into a much nastier human being. Thank god we have gun laws as, I suspect, many of the American teen shooters are familiar with public humiliation.
I haven’t read the thread you refer to but it sounds as though apologising to the person he offended is not a bad solution, providing it is sincere. This is how we resolve conflict as an adult. If we mucked up in the office, there is a private and confidential disciplinary hearing. Comrade’s courts were popular in the USSR and that’s where they should stay.

You can shame anyone you like, you just have to refer to it as "calling them out" instead, because then you are modern and progressive, rather than the mean and bad people who do "shaming".

Yes, I did that but now I know better and I understand what I did wrong. I no longer hold these views

Of course, but how might one go through the process of knowing better, when implicit in it is realizing those around you saw how wrong you were right at the start. That’s a painful process.

I think shame has an important part of society.

Not seeing your children, shame on you.
Watching porn on the bus, shame on you.

Behaviour that differs from mine but is not hurting anyone/making anyone uncomfortable/illegal, no shame.

I think we’ve got really good at being victims, the language of victimhood has a lot of currency these days. The Manchester airport incident was immediately painted as racist (the protesters outside the police station were holding BLM signs). These rioting thugs claim they are the victims and are being smeared. Trans rights activists who stalk , harass and threaten women claim they are in fact the victims. Even during the grooming gang trials, many claimed they were victims of racism. There are a bunch of civil servants complaining that a transwoman is coming to work in fetish gear, I guarantee you he’s going to paint himself as the victim of bigots.

I have to say though, these riots are the first time I’ve seen politicians not fall for the victim narrative which is interesting. I imagine as a consequence of identity politics white men don’t get the same soothing noises as the other thugs we have. I wish it was just the standard response to every arsehole. Shut up, stop crying you are going to prison,

I think thats the thing of our times. Do something awful/stupid/dangerous then start crying that you are the victim pretty much immediately, sometimes WHILE you are doing that thing.

I wish I could collect up every arsehole the UK has to offer and dump them on an island somewhere far away from civilised society. So the rest of us could just get on with peaceful lives.

It’s one of the most fundamental shifts in society. People used to live in communities where everyone knew everyone and the people who behaved in a way that the group disapproved of would suffer. Now we move amongst people who don’t know us and some people feel free to offend everyone with no consequences.

It's interesting when people such as rioters get outed in court. Or a video goes viral and a transgressor gets outed and shamed. The individual hates it and tries to excuse themselves. Because their behaviour is now visible to people they know and care about.

That’s why like minded people will always aim to live in a community of sorts.

Bring back shame! (But only for things I care about 🙂).

I completely agree. In the workplace it's massively problematic, as people don't earn mistakes.

The american school shooters were often outcasts, bottom of the social pile. I actually think we would have fewer school shooters if bullies could expect consequences that was meaningful to them in some way. Clean the loos or something.

When you have an actual bully in a position of power over others I think a good shaming could work quite well.

I think shame is not helpful.
Shame is an identity - the person believes "I am bad", whereas guilt is "I did a bad thing".

It's not about the external person making the judgement - as a pp said, if I don't feel bad about my condition /action/ behaviour, I won't feel shame just because you judge me - that's a you problem and your judgement will slide off me.

With guilt, you can apologise for and change your behaviours, so guilt can prompt you to become a better person through improved actions, because you can feel that you can change and improve and grow.

But with shame, if you identify as bad in yourself and as a person, you won't feel that you can change, and instead as a defence mechanism you are more likely to defend, minimise, avoid, attack back, etc. Because anyone questioning the "bad" behaviour is now attacking your sense of self. And now the behaviours will become even more entrenched and toxic.

Plus, for every person who thinks shame is helpful - by saying that you are setting yourself up as a moral or ethical authority, and saying that what you believe is "right" whereas others are wrong. I don't believe that judgment and moralising at people ever helped them to be better. Understanding and education help, positive role modelling and showing people alternatives and better options help, but judgement is very rarely to never helpful to others.

I think shame is not helpful. Shame is an identity - the person believes "I am bad", whereas guilt is "I did a bad thing"

Sorry @WrylyAmused , I disagree. If you have a pattern of behaviour which is hurting others, its a good thing that you look at your behaviour and start to reflect that you might be a bad person and feel shame. You can still change, and decide to behave differently and become a good person.

I also knew someone who seemed to feel some guilt, or claimed to, but had a whole host of psychological processes to prevent his feeling shame for these. Because he held strongly onto his belief in himself as a 'good person' who sometimes (actually frequently) behaved ' out of character' he was never motivated to change his behaviour. In his mind, these (self serving) bad behaviours existed in some realm external to him as a good person. Hence, no shame and no behaviour change.

Shame has evolved to help people fit in with and be accepted by a group, by discouraging behaviour that could cause them to be ostracised. Depending on the society that can operate positively (imagine a society where men felt shame for harassing women!) or negatively ( women being shamed for being sexually active outside of wedlock).

Bene Brown nails it as usual…

https://brenebrown.com/articles/2013/01/15/shame-v-guilt/

@Bloodyredface
If you have a pattern of behaviour which is hurting others, its a good thing that you look at your behaviour and start to reflect that you might be a bad person and feel shame. You can still change, and decide to behave differently and become a good person.

You are equating the person with their behaviour.
I absolutely agree that you want people to look at harmful behaviours and change them.

But feeling shame , aka believing "I am a bad person" does not help anyone change any behaviours. It makes them feel threatened and defensive, which is the opposite of what you need for growth and change.

Plus, the whole key to identity thinking is that it isn't changeable in that way.
E.g. if your identity is I am poor/stupid/unlovable/a smoker/whatever, then you accept that as an immutable fact and believe it cannot change. So you will likely not even try.

Whereas if you say "currently I don't have much money/need more education/need better social skills/have a tobacco addiction", then the framing shifts to it being something that you can change and have agency over.

We understand that about fat-shaming, self-harm behaviours, many other things. But then somehow think that shame is going to be effective in a different context, eg selfishness.

The person will still be the same person (identity) afterwards, they will just (hopefully) be a person who doesn't engage in those harmful behaviours anymore.

Your example person was simply not taking responsibility for his actions - the "out of character" line - so of course he's not going to change because he's not feeling responsible. He's considering his actions as something inexplicable and external to himself to create psychological distance.

But that is a different issue and I don't believe that if he had (admitted he) felt shame he would have been any more likely to change. I suspect in fact that the "out of character" line is because he did in fact feel bad (in himself, ie shame) for his actions and was therefore using that distance to dissociate from behaviours he wasn't proud of.

To me, shame means the sense of "being wrong/ faulty" and is not useful in governing human behaviour.

Guilt is the sense of having done something wrong - behaviour can be changed so guilt is useful - I can choose to act differently next time.

Guilt involves another person and caring about them /what they think/how they feel, empathy etc., which is why it's beneficial for society.

Shame is intrinsic and focuses (inwards) at the person. It doesn't help anyone.

Argh, the rhetoric in this thread is so 21st century!

Guilt and shame are the same emotion. Try it - does 'guilty' feel different to 'ashamed'?

There's an arguable difference in scope - some would understand guilt to follow a specific action, while shame might relate more to an offence against society. But say you're a sexual abuser of children: you should feel guilty about each young life you've damaged, and you bloody well should be ashamed of yourself too. Societies shame people for breaking their rules; they always have done.

And this century has led me to despise the word 'identity', which seems to have taken on the immutable sanctity that a 'soul' used to have. Our identities aren't fixed; they're an ephemeral, multi-faceted, mutable quality. The more solid quality would be 'character'. We can change that but it's notoriously difficult.

... I'm not ashamed to identify as an irritable pedant this evening, and I don't feel guilty 😏

I often say “bring back shame” these days

Should be on stickers and t-shirts 😄

I might market those 😂

Nothing wrong with shame if you have actually done something wrong.
However, other people might perceive things differently. I have been told on MN that I should feel shame for claiming UC, when I am doing nothing wrong by doing so. Or I should feel shame for being "entitled" by taking my dog to a place where dogs are welcome.
That is the sort of stuff that hurts my brain.

There is a lot of research around this that would suggest that guilt and shame are, different. So unless you are the worlds leading expert and know more that the vast body of research out there, I’m not sure how you can say with such certainty that they are the same. They are often used interchangeably but actually describe two different human experiences. I have some expertise in this domain but do not consider myself an expert as such.

I couldn't agree more. Yes, Mumfluencers, I'm talking to you, and yes, you are being Mumshamed and it's only a pity that you're not ashamed of yourself.

U ok hun?

I’m beyond excited to be a Mumfluencer!! This calls for bubbles

I agree OP and I think the line between guilt and shame is very blurred so Im happy to say they are different but also the same.

But Ive said on many a thread where it has come up, why are we so anti 'judgement'

Ohhh you're being judgemental...

Yes thats right. When society stopped judging people and poor behaviour, people just do want they want with no guilt or shame. As others have said these are not just limited to human animals, they are pro social emotions and concepts, they enable people to live together harmoniously with agreed social boundaries and expectations.

Of course there is room for misuse, just like now that no one can judge anyone and no one must feel ashamed, this is also being misused.

We now live in a self absorbed, selfish, individualistic society where there is lots of disconnect and isolation.

I disagree, I think shame is perceiving that other people see the same faults in you that you know are there, and haven’t got round to fixing- and maybe don’t intend to.

I think shame can be misplaced -e.g. a child feeling shame at being poor because they intend to work their way out of poverty and believe (probably erroneously) that their parents could have done that too.

But I also think a shame free society is not a good one. As an example- should those who like ‘barely legal’ porn feel shame. Yes they should. They know most people would think that makes you a sad sack of shit- including themselves. I think those who try to dismantle shame are actually making society a more unpleasant place for everyone, and just going by this thread it does have the whiff of virtue signalling.

Feeling shame has its place. It can be a powerful incentive to create change.