To not realise how much money is in selling puppies?

[Purplebiscuitwithsprinkles]

We've been on the look out for a puppy. We've decided to go for a rescue dog. Got chatting to a neighbour and they told us a neighbour around the corner is selling puppies at £1500 each x6. As far as we know all is above board and they are registered etc.

We were tempted to go for it as the dogs are on our list but something was niggling away at me so decided to stick with our original plan and go for a rescue dog. This is booked for a visit to a rescue centre tomorrow.

I suppose my AIBU is should people not be allowed to breed puppies and those wanting to get one should just get rescue/abandoned dogs instead? There's so many dogs in shelters but they seem to be so many being bred still.

I don't know the full ins and outs but £9,000 tax free is a lot of money from what I understand the neighbours have bred puppies before and made £10,000 so £19,000 in the space of two years with no tax to pay? Should breeders have to pay a tax and only be allowed to breed so many dogs a year?

Apologies if I have this completely wrong and they do have to pay a tax etc.

You're just thinking about this in a way that means you don't have to feel guilty or acknowledge how fucked up it really is. Why not compare animals to humans?

My neighbor had 4 dogs, rarely walked, bred the bitches back to back, so 4 liters a year, £1500 + per puppy, and people would pay that amount..

That's how they funded a new kitchen/paving of garden/caravan/cars.

They've been doing it for 8 years, covid hit and the price charged went from £400 to £2000...

I've reported them to police, hmrc, rspca and council and now they only have 2 dogs...still don't walk them and don't think they are breeding them the same.

They had 1 jack Russel bitch, bred her and kept a male puppy then bred the bitch with her son, her teeth were huge dragging on the floor because she was being bred every season. Using the money they got for breeding those 2. They got a bitch labradoodle bred her, kept a male puppy and did they same..they deliberately choose the breed due to seeing how much they could get for it.

Baseline14 she sounds like the breeder who we got our dog from! We paid an premium for our dog but what the breeder did for those puppies required so much time, energy and money. We also got a significant amount of extras as part of our cost - free insurance for a while, access to training apps, premium food and so on. I think most reputable breeders don't make a huge amount of money because the output required into raising balanced and well cared for puppies looks to be huge.

Because it's cruel.

Every species experiences the world in a different way, and had different needs. You need to understand those needs in order to give them a happy life.

A dog's maternal bond is done by about 8 weeks. They just have different social drives than humans.

There’s always a risk with rescue dogs. People aren’t honest about their history when give them to the dog home, they could have been abused.
As much as I would love to get a rescue dog I wouldn’t for this reason.
We did go to a rescue for a cat (obviously not the same issues for cats as for dogs) and they said no as I lived too close to a big road and I had a traditional fireplace the cats could climb up. I would have blocked it up or removed it and the cats I had previously had both died of old age and not from being hit by cars, they had had lovely happy lives with me. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere there will always be a road.

My dog is a rescued dog from a backyard breeder. They dumped her at a rescue at 8 weeks old when it became apparent she had major genetic issues.

Speaking to the vets, there are two other dogs of her breed been through with the exact same issue at other rescues, one a year older and one a year younger.

Get a rescue or a reputable breeder only. Backyard breeding should have huge penalties. They are deliberately creating dogs with health issues and expecting local charities to foot the medical bills.

You're wrong, and @LameBorzoi is right

I say it because you don't seem to have much knowledge of how and why dogs are bred. You were willing to consider a random litter, suggesting you maybe hadn't investigated breeds, and hadn't done your due diligence around breeding/breeder standards. Puppy farming is a massive issue, and if you're not confident you could identify it, you shouldn't be getting a puppy. I'm glad you have decided to look at rescues and hope the centre can guide you.

@bellamountain I am always suspicious if the dog breeder has a big fancy car, designer clothes and flash home, expensive holidays etc etc. They are certainly doing it for the money

This tells you nothing. In fact it can be more suspicious if the house is a bit run down, some puppy farmers rent houses to show the pups to prospective owners to act like they're bred in a home environment, when actually they're kept 10 miles up the road in kennels with multiple other litters.

The money in it has, unfortunately, drawn a lot of criminals into it. There are some seriously unpleasant stories around unfortunately.

You can have up to £1000 self-employment income per year without needing to declare it. More than that, and if it’s not declared, it’s fraud.

The price of puppies shot up over lockdown and hasn’t really fallen back yet. There are reasons why not everyone should get a rescue, and for some it’s preference for a puppy. I love my rescue dog but he is high maintenance and high cost.

This is, frankly, bonkers. No one sells newborn puppies. They are, however, ready to leave their mothers much earlier than human babies and that is normal and natural. Whether or not there is money involved makes no difference to the dogs.

Completely agree. If people had to witness the rescue dogs getting put to sleep in order to qualify for a breeders expensive puppy I bet less people would buy them.

It should definitely be regulated more.

@JudgeBurrito it wasn't a random breed it was the breed we are wanting and our neighbour knew that is the breed the other neighbour breeds so introduced us.

We asked a lot of questions from the research we had done and decided that it wasn't for us. I went off vibes from the breeder and something felt abit off. Like the other poster said they were a just abit too flashy for me, I was looking for someone who was abit more down to earth.

If you're expecting everyone who buys a puppy to be an expert on breeding and breeders then you are very mistaken.

@LameBorzoi "Don't treat animals like humans. It's cruel to the animals."

That makes no sense.
Do you think animals feel frightened sometimes and are capable of feeling pain? - of course

Are we able to dominate them? - mostly absolutely.

So because they are vulnerable and we can do what we want, it's fine to take advantage of them?

That doesn't sound good to me.

It very much does make sense. Dogs are dogs, and the kindest thing is to teach them as such. Do I mean in a 1970s sense? Of course not. But equally treating them as 'fur babies' and not letting them indulge their instincts is cruel. My spaniel is a working line so she loves a good run around and some sniffing. She doesn't enjoy a long bath and a good book. I think that's what @LameBorzoi was getting at.

Which breed have you decided on?

I don't expect it, because that's unrealistic, but wouldn't it be nice? I'm hardly an expert, just someone who's done a lot of research.

We've had three Labs, all bought privately from reputable people who enjoyed dogs, and we've always had them as puppies so they bond properly, for training and socialising into dogs we enjoy owning.

There's always the rambunctious adolescent phase (which is very hard work) but when I expressed this sentiment to the vet once, the vet looked very excited, then said they were looking for a nice dog but didn't want a puppy as it was too much time for a farm vet. Followed by, if you decide to rehome her, I'd be interested. About a month later, she settled down and we had a very happy 13 years together.

My SIL is somewhere on the good-bad breeder spectrum. She genuinely loves her animals and is besotted with the litters. But she definitely doesn't spend anything like the lists above. £250 on the stud, no health checks, scans, vet checks until the first vaccination / microchip appt. the puppies (and kittens) are monitored / cuddled / interacted with but it's very much left to the mother to do the care. she makes thousands off each litter and i'm pretty sure she doesn't declare any of it. she does have very luxurious holidays and a nice car.

we didn't get a puppy from her.

If there weren't any breeders there wouldn't be any pets in rescue centres.

Of course animals can feel fear and pain. I never said they didn't. I think they feel emotions more complex than we often give them credit for.

However, while their emotions have a lot of similarities to human ones, there are also differences.

For example, when a puppy gets lost, it makes a particular call. For the first two weeks of life, when the mother hears that call, she gets distressed and runs to retrieve it. At thirteen days of age, that emotion switches off in the mother. After thirteen days of age, a puppy can freeze to death, just outside the nest, calling, and the mother will not react. That particular maternal feeling has gone, and won't return unless shehas another litter.

Judgeburrito understood my point. Just because I enjoy a daily bath does not mean my dog will.

Finally, of course I don't think we should "dominate" animals, don't be ridiculous. However, humans have a unique ability to think ahead - most other mammals don't. Dogs can follow scent in four dimensions, and horses are far more perceptive of changes in their environment than humans are, but they can't weigh up choices like we can. Therefore for domestic animals, we have a responsibility to make choices for them.

@JudgeBurrito out no.1 choice is a Labrador, two of our friendship group have a Labrador and a family member Goldador so will be helpful for advice.

Two of my colleagues also have Labradors one of their partners has his own behaviour training business which we have accepted the offer of once settled.

They should pay tax and HMRC are starting to catch up with these people. They have powers and ways to find out information. On an accountancy forum I have seen several queries where the taxman is catching up with breeders. It's about time.

First, it is not tax-free to breed puppies. Second, that £9,000 possibly received is not anywhere near only profit.
If you do breed a litter of pups you need to keep careful account of everything you spend e.g. stud fee (price of a puppy btw so in case you cite £1500), care of the mother (make sure you have the price of a caesarian - several hundred pounds), feeding of the mother, who must eat well during pregnancy (9 weeks) and before (to be in good condition as having puppies takes it out of her, costing her calcium in particular), cost of weaning puppies, cost of vaccinating, worming and chipping puppies (NB as small pups they will need worming every couple of weeks, and so will mum), cost of advertising (there are free sites, but you probably want to advertise widely), cost of a puppy pack which will include temporary insurance to cover puppy until 12 weeks (unless you want to pay the entire cost of the pup back if it dies or becomes seriously ill after leaving its mother at 8/9 weeks +), and most new owners expect some of the food puppies has been weaned onto (and you will want to provide this because changing diet is a cause of illness in pups - see insurance), a blanket and a toy.
That's a large chunk out of 1500 per pup - and does not include the likely fact that a pup costing that much is a hard-to-breed breed, that puppy mortality before 2 weeks is high, and that birth may well include a caesarian. If the mother has a caesar (or runs out of milk, or is a bad mother, not allowing pups to feed, rolling on them etc) then hand-rearing of the pups may be necessary, which means 3/4 weeks of getting up three times a night to feed them all (plus cost of puppy milk and sterilizing bottles etc and a weighing machine if you don't have one, so you can make sure they are putting on weight) as well as feeding every two hours in the day, moving to three hours after 3 weeks, probably. This means someone may have to take time off work.
There is also the cost of registering the pup either with the Kennel Club or with a reputable breed register.
The tax man will want to know about breeding litters of pups and tax inspectors read things like puppy ads. And can add up, too.

Allied to this answer is this different point: if you have young children you ought not to have a rescue dog.
The reason I say this is that you will not know their history, nor why they are in a rescue kennel, and you do not know the temperament of their parents, or their breed (esp if they are a cross-breed and the cross is not obvious). If you have small children a puppy is the sensible choice, but bear in mind a puppy is a baby itself, and not a toy for the children.
NB If no-one breeds pups where are dogs in rescue kennels coming from?

Last point: are you seriously suggesting that people should be prevented by law from breeding puppies? Do realise how tyrannical that is?

Glad you are not my neighbour. Doubtless you'd report me for watering my garden in the current weather as well.
What your neighbour does is none of your business if it does not impinge on you. Also, you will know nothing of e.g. the dog breeders in question, who may have a licence (only needed if you breed more than 3 litters a year) and make tax returns - be sure HMRC keep an eye on dog breeding and do not need your help.

How many people do not declare income from selling on e.g. Vinted. That's also taxable, and there has been a thread on MN saying it should not be, because the stuff is second hand.