Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome

[Tandora]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.
Inspired by the dumpster fire of a certain thread that filled up just now -
AIBU to share some information about girls and women with CAIS. Many of these women and girls won’t learn about their variation in sex characteristics until adulthood. Some might never know and not without the assistance of modern technologies (that can test , eg, karyotype). For cases of CAIS identified at birth, most individuals are assigned/ registered/ raised female. (Yes sex can be assigned).

Anyone who could know a girl/ woman with CAIS in the real world, and tell her she is , in fact , unambiguously a boy/ man, because gametes, - well you would deserve worse than to be called a sexual fascist.

The NHS recognises the existence of girls and women with CAIS , and provides medical interventions accordingly.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1429/

Yes these conditions are rare, but the more we learn about the biology of sex development , the more complex the picture becomes, as with most areas of science/ biology/ medicine .

this is the last time I will explain myself here.
It was a question I posed to demonstrate that just because a group is over represented in sports doesn’t mean they have an unfair advantage due to physiology or genetics (which is what was being assumed re VSC),

Nothing to do with trans and everything to do with dna,do your research.

You do understand that people with DSDs are not the same as trans people?

I don't see how anyone with XY and abnormal androgen production or sensitivity could 'not know' until they were an adult - they have no womb and will never have periods. Pretty big clue in their teens that they have a medical condition that needs investigation. At an elite athlete level I flatly refuse to believe that they wouldn't know - testosterone is a drug of abuse in sport so levels are routinely checked. It's very sad that some countries choose to exploit people with DSD for sporting advantage.

I don’t think anyone here hates or fears either trans people or people with DSDs. Lots of us number trans people among our friends and family.

Many of us do, however, value the safety and integrity of women’s sports (and other single sex provisions) and think those boundaries are worth defending.

No, CAIS means there is no sensitivity to testosterone so no huge advantage and have a female phenotype, although people with CAIS do tend to be tall.

I don't see how anyone with XY and abnormal androgen production or sensitivity could 'not know' until they were an adult

well that just evidences your ignorance I’m afraid. its not uncommon.
yes people may wonder when they don’t get their period , at first they may just assume they are a late developer. Then they might worry that something else is amiss but there are many other explanations for this that are much more likely than having CAIS.
Many people get to adulthood before they have the types of investigations that eventually confirm CAIS - which are only possible with modern technologies anyway.

That’s because gender is a meaningless term.

There is no such test for sex either

OP has conveniently skipped over the point about this is a matter of SAFETY. Failure to recognise that males competing in female categories pose a physical risk.

That's outrageous sexism.

Instead we are told that we are just being prejudice and unfair.

All while the OP tries to virtue signal (badly) about identity managing to be homophobic and racist in the process.

I'm sorry but some lecturing over unfairness to make competitors in this context doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about and wants to facilitate physical harm to women.

Thats seriously perverse. But hey OP is a good little 'progressive' and can say how inclusive they are...

(Rolls eyes)

The hatred and fear of trans people? Pretty sure this has got fuck all to do with hating trans people because why would anybody hate a group of people just because they are trans 🤨 the issue is that a woman got punched in the fucking face by a bloke. Pisses me off when the label "transphobic" gets thrown about. I am not transphobic at all but I am ablokepunchingawomanphobic. 2 completely different things and it's amazing to me that some people can't seem to understand the difference.

There are scientific, objective tests which can be used to determine someone's sex, in the rare cases where there is any ambiguity in the matter.

There is, as you correctly state, no scientific, objective test for determining someone's gender, because gender is not scientifically, objectively real.

This is illogical - on the one hand we can test for and identify all the various DSD including CAIS, which must be fairly straightforward to diagnose if you are presenting with a person who appears female but has XY chromosomes. Yet on the other hand it's impossible to identify what sex an individual is? The two can't both be true.

There are scientific, objective tests which can be used to determine someone's sex, in the rare cases where there is any ambiguity in the matter.

please share the details of that test and elaborate on the scientific consensus surrounding its reliability. You can’t, because there is none .

Oh for goodness sake. Genetic testing indicates whether a person has no DSD and is XX female or XY male. This provides an answer in 99.9% or thereabouts cases.

For the people with DSDs, it is not always clear cut, but for all the specific examples in this thread the sex is male but the phenotype is female (Swyer’s and CAIS) or male (PAIS and 46-XY 5-ARD).

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with trans people, who just think they are of the opposite sex.

But they definitely know it's not normal - as you acknowledge. They may choose not to seek medical attention but to claim they had no idea that they might have a medical issue is simply untrue. Do any girls get to late teens with no periods and really think they are just a 'late developer' - particularly if competing in elite sport? Gymnasts with low BMI maybe, but not in athletics. People with XY DSDs are majorly over represented in women's sports hence detailed rules on their participation

worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6A%20%E2%80%93%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification%20%E2%80%93%20effective%2031%20March%202023t

If there is any ambiguity about someone's sex, doctors will perform a series of tests, including their genetic karyotype, visual inspection of their external genitalia, ultrasound to see their internal reproductive organs, and possibly also blood tests to measure their hormone levels. On the basis of these tests they will diagnose the person with a particular DSD. All DSDs are sex specific, for example if you have Klinefelter syndrome you are male.

Gender isn't relevant, or indeed real.

We can diagnose CAIS. We can say that someone who has CAIS has a male Karyotype and a female phenotype.

We cannot say that they are a “a man” or “male”; in fact the scientific and medical consensus is to generally assign female to individuals born with CAIS, they are recognised by the NHS as girls and women with CAIS, despite having a male karyotype. Therefore , logically, we also can’t say that testing someone’s karyotype provides a reliable answer for whether they are male or female. Nor does the presence of particular gametes. Etc, etc . This isn’t ideology; it is medicine and science!!!

Which is why if a CAIS XY individual did reach an elite competition status they would likely belong in the women’s category. As I said, DSD come in an amazing number of varieties. We cant just make a one size fits all policy.

And even where someone has a diagnosed DSD, the fact that they had no choice in the matter does not mean they should be allowed to compete in sport if their DSD gives them a competitive advantage over female athletes.

Not being able to compete in women's elite sport might be upsetting for them, but it is something they will have in common with most other people who have ever lived.

It might be upsetting for them. Diddums.

I'd personally just like to ensure that women aren't seriously injured to prevent a male from getting upset.

Or even just losing out on the opportunities and victories that are rightly theirs, in non contact sports.

"Therefore , logically, we also can’t say that testing someone’s karyotype provides a reliable answer for whether they are male or female. Nor does the presence of particular gametes. Etc, etc . This isn’t ideology; it is medicine and science!!!"

No, this is also illogical. The presence of a small number of complex cases doesn't invalidate the two binary sex categories, and doesn't mean you cannot identify the sex category of people without DSDs.

🤦🏼‍♀️

Quite right. They obviously mean a sex test but are using the word gender because they are too coy to use the word sex (which was normal usage up till about 10 years ago)

There is absolutely no way to verify someone's gender, or lack of gender. But sports are subdivided according to sex because there's absolutely no legitimate reason to subdivide according to gender.