Are parents in Cambridge uniquely ineffectual?

[ohrly]

Name change. I apologise for the clickbait title, my observations are based solely on our (primary) school and not all parents here.

We moved here six months ago from a more working-class area. Although that area had its problems, parents generally ensured their kids had basic manners, proper grooming, and weren't violent.

However, at my son's new school, I've noticed a significant lack of manners among many kids. Parents don't seem to enforce them either. The children demand things from their parents and others and are generally rude.

There are a few kids, despite being over seven years old, who frequently hit and push others. Parents respond with mild comments like "Oh no, that's not nice" instead of a more assertive, proportionate reaction like, "Do not hit. If you do that again, we will go home."

Parents also don't seem to enforce boundaries effectively. Instead of saying "5 minutes until we leave the park," they ask, "Are you ready to go now? Okay sweetie, no worries."

Moreover, parents often talk about their kids in a way that suggests the children are in control. They say things like, "Oh, she won't let me..." or "Oh, she doesn't like..." A common issue is kids refusing to let their parents brush their hair, resulting in matted hair.

At parties, no parents watch what's happening, and the kids go quite wild. I've had to stop myself from telling off so many kids.

These observations span a mix of nationalities, but all are middle-class families.
Is this a common occurrence now, or is it specific to Cambridge, this school, or the middle classes? Or am I just going mad?!

I honestly thought I was a super liberal parent until I moved here!

YABU - Stop judging / this isn't a real thing
YANBU - Yes these parents sound dreadful

I find all this soft parenting too soft : ' oh sweetie, would you mind very much .....". Oh purlease.

I agree there are some lovely parents on here saying they are highly academic, neurodiverse etc, but I'm not sure anyone has come on and said they're the parent who let's their kids be rude, entitled, arrogant, disregard others etc?! They seem to be saying that they are cambridge academics/ ND etc BUT they have raised their kids to be lovely.

It's the parents who HAVEN'T bothered to teach common decency that are the problem. And because of the privileges many cambridge kids grow up with, this doesn't come across as thuggish, but as entitled arrogance.

I'm not sure those parents would want to admit it, here or in real life.

"...although it's very white."

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand the relevance of this?

I live in a city around 30 miles from Cambridge (that many on MN look down on) which, incidentally, is much more "diverse" than Cambridge.

But even here there are different parts of the city which are "very white" and which are "diverse", ranging between, for example, literally 0% or less than 1% Asian right up to areas that are 72% Asian.

There are areas of the city that are 95%+ white British and other areas that are 3.7%.

(Source: ONS Census Maps 2021).

This is also reflected in the schools, with primary schools having between 3% and 85% of pupils whose first language is not English.

So, in just one city there are primary schools that are "very white" and also those that are very "diverse". Looking at the results they achieve there doesn't seem to be an obvious correlation between ethnicity and results. Also, talking to parents I know in different parts of the city there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in attitudes towards school.

But there again, the city does not really have a large "upper middle class" group of people living here, or rather, not large enough to have a noticeable effect as others have mentioned about Cambridge.

I am in Cambridge but I think it's everywhere. I had a friend - a teacher at one of the Cambridge private schools no less - who I don't see any more because she simply doesn't have a clue. I got the impression she expected them to come fully formed! They are rude, bad mannered and definitely not socialised.

The final straw came when one of them hit my son on the head with a metal fish slice and made him bleed. I said the child was pretty aggressive and her answer? "Well in this world you have to learn to be assertive".

@rickyrickygrimes

Wow, we don’t live in Oxford or Cambridge, but have friends / colleagues who were both at Oxford, and match your description perfectly!, especially “socially gauche to the point of rudeness and convincing themselves it’s because they are too intellectual to worry about day to day concerns.”

It’s definitely a thing in these circles. My parents (neither of whom were academics) were desperate to be accepted by these people and my mum in particular was very chippy about it because she hadn’t been to university etc so she would move heaven and earth to be accepted by them.

I remember once they had a dinner party and a bunch of these types showed up. One guy was rude to the point of real offence: sat in total silence throughout the meal not saying a word. I offered to clear his plate and he looked right through me etc. He turned out to be a famous poet. I remember afterwards saying to my mum “who does he think he is?” And she said “oh these people are so clever they find these day to day concerns trivial.” She completely drank the Oxford Kool Aid.

I hated that side of it. Arrogance is tolerated or indeed encouraged if it’s perpetrated by “intellectuals”.

Ok so, for balance, my oldest kid is 12, ND, he swears a lot at home. He knows the rules about swearing outside of the house, has never sworn at school, and is not allowed to swear AT someone.
We went on a day out to a busy place yesterday. He hurt himself quite badly and was very upset. He was swearing a lot. To the passer by it would have looked like a softy parent letting their kids 'get away' with swearing and having essentially a big tantrum. The reality is I was actively trying to prevent a meltdown that meant we would all have to leave. I am a people pleaser, I promise you I am cringing inside.
See also - trying to leave a soft play/party etc. I tell child it's time to go. He says no I don't want to. I ignore this because this is the transition time. His mind is processing the demand. If I push it, meltdown. If I give him time to come on his own, yes it takes longer but we all leave happy. To the bystander I am letting my kid dictate.

Also sometimes my kids just aren't lovely and I'm not past admitting that!

Not wishing to derail the thread, but I suspect that has more to do with parents attitudes towards schools and education in particular rather than to parenting generally.

@Another2Cats

Not wishing to derail the thread, but I suspect that has more to do with parents attitudes towards schools and education in particular rather than to parenting generally.

This is true and there’s a risk of conflating two things here.

Kids who have good manners who brush their hair and mind their Ps and Qs won’t automatically do better at school. Academic achievement is quite a different beast from being well rounded socially and respectable. In fact very often the two are mutually exclusive. High achieving parents very often value academic achievement above social niceties for all the reasons discussed on this thread. So a kid not brushing it’s hair properly, not saying please or whatever would not be a priority for a parent whose main concern was getting their kid into Oxbridge.

The final straw came when one of them hit my son on the head with a metal fish slice and made him bleed. I said the child was pretty aggressive and her answer? "Well in this world you have to learn to be assertive".
I had similar with ds and a child who wanted control over the roundabout in a playpark and would push any other child off it, or run up and pull them off it if he wasn't actually on it, another Lord of the Flies moment with simpering mother applauding his assertiveness. Oddly when DS held on and refused to be pushed or pulled off and Lord Jack then fell off and had a massive temperature tantrum as ds wasn't doing what he wanted, this was then unaccompanied bullying...🫤

@MadeInChester But words like entitled and arrogant are not factual descriptions of behaviour, they are forceful opinions on the causes of certain behaviour and the internal motivations of others. People accusing other people’s parenting of being the cause of rudeness, arrogance, sense of entitlement, etc, could equally therefore be accused of being judgemental, rude, arrogant, unkind and unpleasant. Posters choosing these words are apparently convinced of the correctness of their own perspective and the inadequacy of other people. The opening post, after all, commented on the behaviour of primary aged children and their parents’ ineffectual responses, not on arrogant parents who think their parenting style is great.

I think @CharlotteLucas3 who posted the following yesterday is an example of someone who comes across to me as a good deal more introspective, thoughtful and kind than some of the more black and white-thinking posters on this thread (she also admitted to one of her two children being very badly behaved when he was younger and the other not needing boundaries to be set).

”Neurodiverse people tend not to be defensive. Although people say we wear masks, I find that it’s the neurotyoicals (generally speaking of course) who want to portray themselves in a particular way. I just want openness and a connection. If someone’s competitive and inauthentic I’ll just not bother with them. Which is why I’m usually alone.

I openly admit that I was quite ineffectual, but then I think different children need different types of parenting. My youngest DS has always started crying at the first sign of conflict and I’ve never had any need for boundaries with him. My elderly mother requires far more parenting and I’m finding it infuriating because I think people should be able to manage their own behaviour enough so that boundaries aren’t needed. As has been said, we spend a lot of time analysing things. What does annoy me is when people say things with absolute certainty without any analysis of what they’ve said. No going off on tangents for them!

If someone criticises me I’ll have a good think about whether they have a point….and I guess I’ve just illustrated why our boundaries are weak. We’re never really sure that we’re correct and we’re not very good at pretending to be sure that we’re correct. We weigh everything up, we waffle, we go off on tangents but our ND children appreciate that style of communication. I think🙂.”

I see the children around me, in Cambridge, as they move through secondary school age, to be articulate , thoughtful and responsible, DD age 12 and I were at a performance of the London City Ballet last week at the Cam Arts Theatre. A girl next to us, around same age, was rustling and munching sweets during the performance. DD raised an eyebrow and the bag was put away. During the interval DD told her quietly but firmly that the internal is when one has snacks, as otherwise the noise disturbs the audience and also - perhaps most important - the dancers on stage, such are the excellent acoustics. The girl apologised and said she hadn’t thought of that. All very civilised.

The strict state secondaries in Cambridge are run by the MAT United Learning (Trumpington Community College, Coleridge, the once great Parkside) and the dull, silent lessons, newly qualified ergo cheap to hire but inexperienced teaching staff, and endless PowerPoint slides produce obedient drones who will be useful technicians and service industry staff in their adult life but not fit to be leaders and intellectual and creative power houses. Fitting in docilely and being ‘good’ is not rewarded, nor ultimately respected if we’re being honest, in adult life. Not that one is advocating the dichotomy of being an entitled brat either, but independence of thought and action are of great value.

I do think gentle parenting is the latest MN froth fest to be honest. Like most froth fests here there is some truth both in what people report and also in the stereotypes but they get hugely exaggerated for dramatic effects so by the end of the thread Cambridge, Oxford, Brighton and all other places with parents who have above average incomes and above average levels of education are running amok undisciplined, attacking other children with savage glee, unstopped by everyone (except the MNetter in question who often is the sole person who with her commanding voice and terrifying state quelled the child in their tracks)

The other side is those who insist that gentle parenting isn’t permissive parenting - but it usually is, especially past a certain age where physical force can’t be used.

Most of us are somewhere in the middle.

What might be slightly unusual in Cambridge is that there is a lot of movement backwards and forwards between state and private, such that many children have experienced both. Extracurriculars such as ballet, music ensembles, drama and sports usually include both state and privately educated children. Also, because of the high value placed on education, it is not that unusual for families to live in small houses (e.g. 2 bed terraces) but to spend their money on privately educating their children. There aren't really two distinct groups, more of a continuum.

There's not one way of parenting. What you think is right and work for your children, may not work for other children.

There is an uncomfortable amount of truth in this.

It might be very pleasant as a parent to have exceptionally well-behaved kids, but they're not necessarily going to turn into successful and confident adults. You need to allow some freedom to push boundaries, and that does mean that your kids will probably annoy others at some point.

Agree. I hate it when adults are smug about their kids behaviour. I’ve a really well behaved well mannered confident child, I am under no illusion that one day it could all change. It irks me when people say to parents “ he/she is a credit to you”.

@GoFigure235

Yep. And in fact overly compliant kids are generally not the cleverest kids. There is some evidence that rebelliousness correlates with higher intelligence.

Clearly that is not or should not a carte blanche to let kids be arrogant little so and sos because they are “clever”: which unfortunately happens a lot and is indulged in these circles. There is a tendency for intellectual parents to be quite permissive because they think healthy dissent is good bla bla bla. Which often just produces little wankers in my experience. I saw an awful lot of academics children go quite badly off the rails and I suspect permissive parenting and lack of guidance played a part.

But it is also true that kids who are overly focused on being compliant and toeing the line are not likely to develop an ability to challenge authority when it matters. Perfect little well behaved children with constantly clean clothes who never say boo to a goose don’t tend to grow up to be very ambitious. A dash of selfishness can sometimes be useful.

As with everything in life it’s about balance.

That was a thing when I was a child. Teachers and police officers children were assumed to be the most feral!

I probably am thought I was turning into a grumpy old woman this weekend on 3 occasions regarding parenting young children

Occassion one - was doing parkrun on Saturday, (probably a whole other thread for MN!!) and a tiny child was wobbily riding a bike and veered into the path of a man running full pelt to the finish. Of course he has just as much right to use the park as parkrunners or anyone else but I was worried one or both of them would get hurt (the man quickly moved out of the way) If you were supervising a small child on a bike presumably it would be a lot easier/safer in an area without people running at speed.

But I've seen similar things in our town centre where small kids, not overly good at steering, are riding scooters along the (narrow) pavement and in supermarkets, and don't have any awareness of other people. Everyone else has to move or risk being barged into.

Occassion 2 and 3 - waiting for familys with multiple kids on bikes/rollerskates to pass when trying to pass on a narrow pavement or entering a shop. (It literally takes a nanosecond to say thanks, but both sets just seemed to presume right of way and were oblivious that other people were using the pavement, waiting to go into the shop)

My experience of those kind of children when they grow up is that they do tend to be very confident, generally successful and pretty fun people to be around. They are also more risk-taking and all vape, snuff, smoke weed and do other drugs. If they have their own businesses it all works out well but if you had to work with them they are a bit of a nightmare because they don't understand not getting their own way and can kick off if they don't.

Exactly this.
Having seen some of the stupidly blind obedience during COVID (people too scared to go out twice a day, people timing their walls to the minute etc) the last thing I want is to raise children who think unquestioning obedience is a virtue

In fact my son is probably only alive because he has ignored the instructions of adults on more than one occasion (including his own dad, and two different teachers) and refused to eat food they were assuring him was safe.

I sympathise hugely with you but I think I did too much of the “watch where you are going etc” with my child with the result that she’s too polite , gives way too much on the pavement. I want her to assume she has the same right of way as others and not be rude but be more pushy if that makes sense. I wonder if the kids you are talking about will be more forceful in adult life?

Somewhat off-topic but I love the way this exchange is also a very good description of Sherlock Holmes :-)

And there we have it.

Maybe parenting where you instil values in your children does work better than authoritarian parenting....

I made sure I talked to my children about the value of education, instilled a love of learning and a curiosity. I've never needed to be authoritarian to get them to do their homework or get ready for school as they understand the value.

If they didn't want to practice reading when they were tiny, I didn't make them. I read a story to them or played with them instead. They now choose to read for fun. My step kids, whose mum forced them to read even if they were crying that they didn't want to, never ever read for pleasure now and aren't doing as well academically because they are school as something they are made to do.

Completely agree. I find the uncalled- for defensiveness of neurotypicals and the aggression if they feel their social status is even slightly threatened on here very tiring.