DC’s teacher didn’t go to university.

[RabbitWedge]

Two of my DC’s are at the same secondary private school. It’s a small private school, not a well known name, but costs a small fortune nonetheless. An interaction with one of my DC’s English teachers at the end of term has made me feel uncomfortable.

‘Mrs Jones’ has worked at the school for a number of years. She is a very well liked English teacher; the children love her and she’s given high praise on the parents WhatsApp group. At the end of term, I was having a casual chit chat with ‘Mrs Jones’ and the topic of university came up. I asked ‘Mrs Jones’ where she went to university, and she stated that she had not gone and didn’t have a degree. I must have looked very taken aback, as she quickly added that she had an impeccable educational record (apparently all A’s and A*’s), she’d been tutoring for a number of years and working as a TA, at which point the school promoted her to teach English. I didn’t ask for this explanation, but she perhaps felt the need to justify her teaching.

I was under the impression that all teachers had to have degrees at the very least, and whilst I don’t doubt her popularity and delivery of her English lessons, I am concerned. I was aware that teachers in the private system didn’t need to be qualified teachers, but to not even have attended university seems unsuitable.

Would you raise this with the school in my position?

There are far too many people who think the only way you can be Knowledgeable about something is to have a degree in it.

she’s a good teacher by the sound of it. Stop complaining.

But the teacher didn't just get good A levels and then started teaching - they worked their way up within a teaching environment so effectively did an apprenticeship.

It would be equally possible to produce an excellent doctor using an apprenticeship which combined study with situational experience on an ongoing basis in a hospital. It would have to include some kind of exam/module testing assessment to make sure that at each stage of their apprenticeship they were retaining all the huge amounts of information doctors need to know and understand to do their job. The apprenticeship would take the place of the current five year medical school degree - as it would be more intensive that could probably be done in four years and then the path would follow the current lines 2 year foundation followed by specialised training, both of which are very much on the job training already.

Of course that's a very unproductive way to train the vast amounts of doctors we need, which is why it's easier, cheaper and more efficient to have all the potential medical students start with the five year degree.

The HT of our DC's primary school was a fully qualified teacher and must have had English and Maths O'Levels. She couldn't string together a grammatically correct sentence orally or in writing.

We transferred the DC to the independent sector. The teachers were without exception, very well educated which is what matters. The knowledge they passed on was correct and accurate and the school achieved exceptional results.

Do you want her to lose her job? Do you want the school to fund her through a degree at night school? I don't think mentioning it will help.
Loads of absolutely crap teachers have several degrees!

I’m a maths teacher. I have a degree, but not in a numerate subject. I teach A-level maths and I just make sure my subject knowledge is fully up to scratch! It can be done, you just need to really want to do it.

You don’t seem to argue that having a degree makes you better at teaching. I am not worried about “what makes us professional”, what is relevant is being a good teacher.

I wouldn’t really care.

As long as she was teaching what she’s supposed to, it wouldn’t bother me.

She’s highly regarded, so clearly she’s doing something right, qualified or not.

Dad went to Alleyn's when it was boys only, and he said his mum proudly told him 'all the teachers have degrees!'.

I think you can let the school know that you’re not happy that the teacher hasn’t got a degree or teaching qualification. I doubt they’ll do anything, but private schools care about what the fee paying parent thinks.

Can't you just do any old degree and become a teacher, a couple at DS's school that weren't so bright went on to teach.

There is no requirement to have a degree, or a teacher training qualification if you teach in a private school.

Why would you raise it if she's a good teacher? Plenty of terrible teachers have degrees. That's not what makes a good teacher.

Honestly I get that you'd prefer that she was more qualified than she is but there is nothing to be gained from raising it with the school. They are full aware of her qualification and employ her . All you would achieve would be to get on the wrong side of your child's teachers.

'Better at teaching' is subjective though, isn't it? What we should be aiming for is highly qualified professionals who have had to compete for a place on a PGCE course and who those involved in training have the ability to get rid of those who won’t make the grade. Once trained, some level.of competition for jobs should also exist.

At the moment, it seems just about anyo e gets accepted on a PGCE course and allowed to graduate regardless of their demonstrable ability to teach. And then they get jobs because a body filling the timetable is better than a paid supply body (assuming you can find one).

We should be aiming for qualified professionals, amazing CPD to develop teachers further and pay which encourages all those who could teach and teach well to give it a go. What we're suggesting here is further dumbing down of the profession. Why are you not arguing for improved standards both in subject knowledge and ability to teach it?

And as a teacher who teaches out of her subjects area on two accounts, I can assure you that subject k owledge makes me a better teacher in my subject. I am no where near as polished in the other two.

I'd be more ok with this in a subject like English than say physics. If my kid asks a question beyond the syllabus or where a knowledge of degree level in that subject would dictate a different answer than somebody who only studied it to A level, then I want my child being taught by the person with the degree who has the more in depth knowledge with which to answer such a question.

Without a degree in the subject, teachers might not even know a question actually requires a different answer to the standard A level textbook one if they have not studied it to a higher level.

I think you might be shocked at the number of ‘Physics’ teachers out there who have not completed a degree in Physics. It’s a shortage subject and incredibly difficult to recruit, An awful lot of Biology specialists end up teaching Physics out of necessity.

I'm 66 and it was suggested, back in my lower 6th year, that we should all apply for a teacher training college place - just in case we messed up our A levels.

It was just possible in 1976 to obtain a Cert Ed. (Certificate of Education) and become a fully qualified teacher.

Entry to such a course required O levels or Grade 1 CSEs although some may have had A levels too.

Most of my cohort, and previous ones, will have retired by now. Just as those emergency trained teachers after WW2.

You'd not know that one of your own teachers 'only' held a Cert Ed unless they told you so or if their name and level of education was published. Some rose through the ranks to be departmental leaders, deputies and heads.

Just because a teacher has lots of qualifications doesn't guarantee that they will be a good teacher of children.

And me? Didn't mess up A levels but chose to go to a teacher training college and do a degree. Did a PGCE, at another teacher training college a few years later. Then taught for 30+ years.

Would I have met your criteria?

There are a few of us left who "only" went to teaching training college. To have lasted this long we must have managed ok.
I worked with three teachers who couldn't manage in the state sector so they moved to private. They were poor teachers.

Oh, the delusions about minor private schools! I am a product of a state school, so is my husband. We entertained the notion that everything in private schools, even minor, is better. So we sent out dc there, thinking that. How wrong we were! The examples of unprofessionalism are too many to mention, and when I realised the school was not teaching, I started teaching my dc at home (after work) because we could not afford the fees plus tutors. I was shocked to find out that most had tutors in final years but admitted it only under duress to their closest mum friends. No university diploma would have been a non-event at our school.

I taught a practical STEM subject.

A deal of the material, devices, components used and taught about for my subject did not exist when I first started teaching.

As new stuff came in, other stuff was dropped from the curriculum.

You have to keep on the ball, train, read up however good ones initial qualifications were.

I won't be giving my opinion on your rather ignorant post until you come back to comment (218 posts in and you've only posted once).

One of the most effective teachers in our local state school is not qualified and does not have a degree. What she does have is many years experience in the school rising through the ranks from a TA to a non-qualified teacher and who job shares with a qualified teacher. Parents are far more concerned about how she is able to do her job than they are with her academic qualifications

I trained at a teacher training college so don't have a degree. My standard of written English is streets ahead of some who have a more recent English degree...😉

Back in the 50s, there were still teachers who had started their career without any formal training at all. They were "pupil teachers", who had learned on the job, and very effective most of them were. In the 60s, teachers at secondary level were in such short supply that anyone with a pulse was employed. We had refugees from Europe with PhDs, ex-military Intelligence officers with Oxbridge Masters degrees...most of them were incompetent as teachers.

It depends on whether you just want an effective teacher of the syllabus with an ability to motivate the class and make what has to be taught as engaging as possible; or also someone with the interest and knowledge to go way beyond the confines of the level that has to be taught, and the connections, knowledge and experience to be a potentially useful source of advice on academic life and specific university subject and destination choices. You could, of course, end up with an ineffective teacher for all but a minority who are already very bright and self-motivated, but with a degree or even PhD, as effective teaching is never guaranteed just because someone with a degree is standing in front of the class and calling themselves a teacher. In fact, it’s probably easier to keep it simple and focused if you don’t have too much knowledge in the subject yourself…

Everyone’s fantasy is a teacher with a PhD who can teach and inspire those of all levels of ability, right up to the most naturally gifted, enabling all to perform way beyond the level that would normally be expected of them. Being interested in teaching and being interested and hugely knowledgeable about English language and literature are different things, however, and do not always overlap.

A teacher with a love of their subject greater than their love of teaching will likely be far less enthusiastic about spending their time helping the less able or more disruptive students if they can instead focus on students who are already bright, motivated and have interesting ideas of their own. So really, you need to think about the needs and interests of your own children and whether you think a teacher relatively unqualified in the subject they are teaching will nevertheless be enough of a springboard for them if they develop a genuine love for the subject.