DC’s teacher didn’t go to university.

[RabbitWedge]

Two of my DC’s are at the same secondary private school. It’s a small private school, not a well known name, but costs a small fortune nonetheless. An interaction with one of my DC’s English teachers at the end of term has made me feel uncomfortable.

‘Mrs Jones’ has worked at the school for a number of years. She is a very well liked English teacher; the children love her and she’s given high praise on the parents WhatsApp group. At the end of term, I was having a casual chit chat with ‘Mrs Jones’ and the topic of university came up. I asked ‘Mrs Jones’ where she went to university, and she stated that she had not gone and didn’t have a degree. I must have looked very taken aback, as she quickly added that she had an impeccable educational record (apparently all A’s and A*’s), she’d been tutoring for a number of years and working as a TA, at which point the school promoted her to teach English. I didn’t ask for this explanation, but she perhaps felt the need to justify her teaching.

I was under the impression that all teachers had to have degrees at the very least, and whilst I don’t doubt her popularity and delivery of her English lessons, I am concerned. I was aware that teachers in the private system didn’t need to be qualified teachers, but to not even have attended university seems unsuitable.

Would you raise this with the school in my position?

Of course it has.

Do you really think that the quality of teaching in universities hasn't improved since the 80's?

Look at all the pedagogical research (and particular TEL), esp when it really started to snowball mid 90's onwards.

As someone with a recent (2017) First Class degree and as a HE lecturer for the last two years (plus the teaching I did on my Ph.D), I can attest to the rigor and quality of work required to obtain a First Class degree.

Your comments are incredibly insulting to recent graduates - you really don't have a clue.

But the concern is not so much the teacher doesn’t have a teaching qualification. It’s more that the teacher doesn’t have a basic bachelors degree in the subject she is teaching - English. Which I totally agree with OP- should be a basic requirement especially in a private school of all places. I think some private schools are just shoddy money making scam businesses really. Apart from Eton, Harrow, Winchester and such.

There are many many people who don't have a degree who have superior have critical thinking, abstract reasoning, language and analytical capabilities. Degrees are not actually a very good measure of intellectual capabilities. I think you need to ask yourself why this matters to you so much. She contributes to excellent results in the department and is known to be a very good teacher and children are considered lucky to be in her class. The child's experience and the outcomes are all that matters.

Having a degree doesn’t make you a good teacher. That’s the bonus of a private school, they can employ people based on their skill and performance and not some arbitrary measure. My kids have had a few terrible teachers, all of course with degrees. Further, you don’t have to be all that bright to scrape a pass at a degree.
I’m one of those without a degree, and I was offered a teaching position at a private school (also when I was still a teenager). I didn’t take the job, I’ve created several businesses and earned far more than I would have teaching.
Your view is rather narrow minded.

There are equally many people who don’t have a degree and who also DON’T have superior critical thinking, abstract reasoning, language and analytical capabilities.
Assuming that she does would be a massive stretch and giving her the benefit of doubt. Which is not acceptable when you are paying eye watering fees - you deserve complete assurance that the teacher has at least studied the field to basic BA level.

Why are you implying that this teacher is not acceptable? She may be an outstanding teacher and it is weird that you are assuming she isn’t.

Your phrasing “chose someone with the right pedigree” is weird. The school have chosen someone who appears to be an excellent teacher. That is what matters. Having a degree doesn’t matter. I find it odd that you are pretending this about “pedigree”.

I imagine that GCSCE won't be a problem for her, but I would worry about her teaching "A" level.

I was a faculty head in a Scottish secondary school. (Many schools here now have faculty heads because it's cheaper than employing multiple heads of department. A false economy, in my view.)

I was dual qualified. However, we found ourselves without a teacher of German...and German is not one of my subjects. I am qualified to teach a modern language, but I only have German up to Higher level. (That's akin to an English AS Level.)

In the end, I had to organise the work for the class myself, teach it part of the time and set the mocks for German myself. The other person who covered the class also had Higher German. Fortunately, the class was only Standard Grade (our then equivalent of GCSE). I would not have been fit to teach above that standard.

The class all achieved their expected grades, but the school chose no longer to present German after that experience, given the difficulty in obtaining a properly qualified teacher.

Subject knowledge (as appropriate for phase and subject) is needed. This does not mean that a degree is needed.

Sorry @RabbitWedge but I’m trying to understand what you’re hoping for from the school? If you feel uncomfortable it sounds like you’re wanting to flag it with them but they already know of her qualifications…?

@EKnaring I would like justification as to why they have employed an English teacher who only has A Levels to her name. Our school only goes up to GCSE, so that’s the highest level any of our teachers teach.

It is still very difficult to work out what you are worried about. You don’t seem to question her teaching. You just somehow think that because you are paying a lot of money she should have a degree. If having a degree is the most important thing to you, you can of course move your DC to a different school. That seems to be your only option. But you may end up with a worse educational experience. I guess you need to decide what is actually important to you and only you can do that.

What are you actually planning on doing if you do not get an acceptable response? Are you planning on moving your child? If not, it is difficult to see the point of this exercise.

What will you do if the response is along the lines of “We decided to hire Mrs Jones as a teacher because of her outstanding teaching and subject knowledge. We continue to have full trust on her teaching and subject knowledge. Kind regards”. Be happy? Or not be happy?

Because she is good at the job?

Because there is a massive teacher shortage across the country?

Children across the whole country are being taught by TAs, some of whom don't even have GCSEs. At least she is being paid for the job she is doing, which is more than can be said for the position of many of these poor women (and it is mostly women)

Teachers do need subject knowledge but just like pilots and mechanics the relevant industry training would suffice. In fact both teachers and nurses were trained within there industry until a generation or so ago when it was decided they needed to go to uni. How on earth did the manage ?

The subject knowledge you need to know in order to teach changes all the time. You learn it when you need to know it. If you are a history teacher, how could you know all the history that there is? The exam board changed what it is examining, and you catch up when you know what they want. Same in any subject really. Some of what I have to teach in science isn't even correct, but the exam board is out of date, so we teach out of date science to the kids, so they can pass

A lot of teachers with a post 16 teaching qualification don’t have QTS, it is far more common for those teaching in further education and Sixth Form college, therefore if a school is 11-18, there may well be teachers with a PGCE, but without QTS.

And I can attest to the rigor needed to obtain a first class degree in the 1980s.

As I said, getting a First in the 1980s had nothing to do with teaching. It was about independent research and thinking.

It's still about independent research and thinking.

Sometimes with independent self taught research - you don’t know what you don’t know. My English literature teacher at my state grammar school had a phD from Cambridge. He knowledgably pointed us toward reading somewhat abstract critiques and viewpoints of authors I would never have thought of by myself. Or looked for or found of my own accord. I got 100% marks in 2 English literature exams and I wholly attribute that to him. I suspect my exam responses were quite unique because of his high knowledgable and skilled input. Subsequently went on to study medicine. And I am grateful to that school and teacher to this day for giving me the life I now live.

I thought it was a well known fact that you didn’t have to have a degree to teach at a private school. I know of a few people who failed their teaching degree so went onto to teach privately

Legally, you can teach up until one qualification below that which you hold, if you do in school Initial Teacher Training…

I don’t necessarily agree with it, but sometimes it’s better than having Cover staff that know nothing about the subject whilst they fail to get qualified staff thanks to teachers being hounded out of the profession…

Many years ago teachers only needed a “teaching certificate”. My cousin - who has since retired - only did an OA degree a few years ago because she was working more as a supply teacher after having her daughters (who are now in their 30s) and to compete with those who were a lot younger and more likely to have a degree when it came to salaries and moving up
pay scales.

On another note, I have worked in the legal sector for the last nearly 40 years and there are some “qualified” lawyers out their whose degree wasn’t law and some of them I wonder how they get up and get dressed in the morning.

I have know people take degrees for fun and whilst they seem intelligent in their chosen subject have no common sense or basic skills.

That is why people now are encouraged to look at apprenticeships instead - learn on the job.

Many teachers with a degree teach a different subject to their gained degree

Not in Scotland, where teachers in state schools must have a degree in the subject they're teaching

So what would that achieve? Leave well alone.
This obsession with university degrees is pointless.