DC’s teacher didn’t go to university.

[RabbitWedge]

Two of my DC’s are at the same secondary private school. It’s a small private school, not a well known name, but costs a small fortune nonetheless. An interaction with one of my DC’s English teachers at the end of term has made me feel uncomfortable.

‘Mrs Jones’ has worked at the school for a number of years. She is a very well liked English teacher; the children love her and she’s given high praise on the parents WhatsApp group. At the end of term, I was having a casual chit chat with ‘Mrs Jones’ and the topic of university came up. I asked ‘Mrs Jones’ where she went to university, and she stated that she had not gone and didn’t have a degree. I must have looked very taken aback, as she quickly added that she had an impeccable educational record (apparently all A’s and A*’s), she’d been tutoring for a number of years and working as a TA, at which point the school promoted her to teach English. I didn’t ask for this explanation, but she perhaps felt the need to justify her teaching.

I was under the impression that all teachers had to have degrees at the very least, and whilst I don’t doubt her popularity and delivery of her English lessons, I am concerned. I was aware that teachers in the private system didn’t need to be qualified teachers, but to not even have attended university seems unsuitable.

Would you raise this with the school in my position?

What’s TEFEL?!
Do you mean TEFL as in teachers of English as a foreign language?

Usually teachers as such, are qualified with a degree in Education and a teaching diploma which are equivalent to the British standards, and many have Master in English or a related field in education.

Many people who choose private are doing it for because of the brilliant education they will get, but for a number of different reasons - when I, a state-educated person, talked to other mums and asked why, the answers were - the atmosphere, no local riff-raff, no foreign riff-raff, sports opportunities, good discipline, ability to meet and potentially marry people like them, etc. The reasons were many and very varied.

What on earth are you talking about?!

Would love to see any actual evidence to back this up 😂

Not back in the day no. My old boss who was head of a large legal department didn't have one and hadn't done degree level training. It wasn't a requirement.

Nurses didn't used to need a degree until fairly recently either.

I am a qualified teacher. I have a PGCE and QTS. I did a Theology degree (got a 2:1 from Leeds Uni. I can not remember any of the content of it. I was stoned most of the time. I was a kid. I winged it. The content was utterly irrelevant to the content of GCSE RE. I completed a PGCE Religious Studies Newcastle Uni… so that I could teach Outdoor Ed and PE. Over the last 20 years OFSTED found my lessons, and department to be ‘outstanding’.

Not at all. Why should they have a degree?

A lifetime of experience in sector far outweighs most crap degrees.

Apparently you can pass with 40%. It’s absolute bollocks most of the time.

This isn’t true. I know people teaching subjects at state schools that they didn’t even do a levels in.

Teaching assistants are often used to "teach" classes these days. So it shouldn't be a surprise really.

She left school when pregnant so got no GCSEs but she went back to education to get an NVQ in social care.

her start in life she has done amazingly well for herself.

Maybe with an improved education system (for both public and private, as some private and independent schools seem to be the ‘Wild West’) a girl growing up like Angela could go on to be PM.

Schools need more resources and the teaching profession and children themselves need to be much more highly valued by our society.

Would you raise this with the school in my position?
No.

It’s not uncommon for private school to hire unqualified teachers- because they have the correct background ( posh,
family connections, went to school with someone connected to the school) or the right accent etc.
Friend has recently had safeguarding issues at her daughters school, and discovered that several of the new male teachers haven’t had either background checks or have DBS.
private schools make up their own rules.
Part of the culture that allowed bullies
And
sex offenders to thrive in then, unfortunately.

My brother has a degree, masters and a PhD - and will regularly spend large amounts of time doing things such as pushing at pull doors, and walking into see through things.

University does not necessarily equal intelligence

For those of us who remember him, would you prefer to be taught Maths by Johnny Ball or a mathematician with a PhD?
With English, I am continually disappointed by the inability of people to express themselves clearly, so I would be very happy with someone who could bring the subject to life and impart an enthusiasm for prose, poetry and drama, whatever their formal educational qualifications.

No but hopefully imparts subject knowledge.

Just to add to my previous post - as it turns out I'm quite good at 'going to uni' as it's really not that hard once you work out the 'formula'; and I've no worries at being an idiot, either voluntarily or just by dint of being me. Could write an esay with one hand and balance a baby with the other; mind and body intact.

Even started forging an academic niche but all plans went to trash when some young uni-read, brain-dead teachers got ds in their sights and his 'very bad parent' and his education went tits up.

It's ok now and karma has kicked some ass where due - but honestly, going to uni and getting a degree only means you can 'do' uni and nothing more.

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. At my grammar school in the 70s about a 1/3rd of the masters had teaching certificates but no degree. Having a degree in the subject did not make for a better teacher, believe me.

Then that school is breaking the law and should be closed. Please don't use that highly dubious example as a typical example. It bears no resemblance at all to any of the numerous private schools I know who have just as, if not more rigorous safeguarding and DBS procedures.

Er, Brunel went to university in France, aged 14.

I do think it’s a bit different when the field is education, generally think you’d expect the person to have a qualification higher than the one they are teaching. Up to GCSE is probably fine but to teach A level without a degree is a bit iffy.

@3CustardCreams the common core NC is whatever the current government says it is. Read some of the posts about how SATS are crushing the life out of y6 kids' interest in learning. Talk to state teachers about how Gove's reforms have similarly made much of secondary a dull, rote learning experience. When I say private schools have freedom, I mean within a structure of senior management, faculty heads, cross curricular themes. It's not literally individual teachers just doing what they feel like on that day. It means in KS3 history you can include some stuff about the local history of your area, or look at the alumni of your school who went to war. Mostly we do do pretty similar but we're not absolutely bound to it and can make a bespoke curriculum but noone is dropping Shakespeare.

but pilots undergo training to be pilots, and technicians and engineers working on planes are not doing it without relevant industry training either. In those cases, the industry itself is setting the standard and passing or failing those who undertake the training.

Teachers require subject knowledge as a prerequisite to being able to teach. Without the subject knowledge, we're pretty useless. The teaching bit can be acquired on the job but the rest needs to be in place, surely?

If she’s doing a good job of teaching, then there isn’t a problem. Just forget it.

Private schools often have non qualified staff.

Yes but that was because teacher training wasn’t recognised as degree level qualification then. Teaching certificates included learning a couple of subjects at degree level, plus training on how to teach them. A university degree at that time would just have been academic. So teachers with an academic degree but no teaching certificate would be less well trained, if at all.

This case is someone who doesn’t have any higher education at all OR any teacher training. It’s not the same at all.

As a former senior academic in a prestigious university I can tell you that I've encountered probably thousands of graduates that I would absolutely not want teaching my grandchildren! A university degree is not really any longer an indicator that somebody is 'educated', in the sense we used to mean by that term, or that they're fit to teach. Conversely, I've known many people without a university degree whose erudition and ability to inspire intellectual curiosity and independent thinking is exactly what I would wish for every child. Don't fall prey to a kind of mindless credentialism and risk alienating somebody who may be excellent for your child.

Oh this is fun.

Teachers at state schools do have to be qualified. At private schools, nope. Ha.