I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

If it wasn’t for mumsnet I’d have no idea about this.
In real life no one I know (mix of people with kids in private and public school) seems to care or discuss this at all.

'But basic economics means you need wealthy people in a country earning money and paying taxes to fund a welfare system "

Yes like paying Vat

1. Yes, I do realise that. But private schools breed inequality. No one should be receiving “better” education because mummy and daddy are rich. (And yes, you ARE rich if you can pay for private education. Even if that means going without holidays and buying supermarket own brand).
2. No, I didn’t realise this but don’t care. I voted remain, but thank you for bringing it to my attention, as I see this as one positive of no longer being in the EU.

Yup. My feelings exactly. And my kids went to private school

I don’t mean to be rude but why so many threads on this topic? It just makes people angry who see private schools as elitist.

As a private school parent myself- we give zero fucks about the VAT - most are quite right, we can afford the uplift or we’ll move to a state school. Its not really a discussion to
involve those not in private education. It’s like asking a cow a question , it’s a moo point.

Why are people saying that the Starmer’s daughter is at private school?

Sorry, did I just read that Starmer’s daughter is at a fee paying school? I had never heard that before.

so all those saying that independent schools give an unfair leg up are okay with the labour leader doing that for his daughter (although I think he said he wouldn’t use private healthcare)?

Assuming it’s true of course!

No idea she’s at a state school - it’s in a lovely expensive catchment area but she’s not in private education . I doubt he’s that well off- before he became PM he was a solicitor - normal ish pay and even now PM isn’t a high salary at all. It’s about 150k a year - though he does get a free house I suppose.

Ha! True

Exactly - I’m unsure why people make posts about it- but I think the posts are from those who don’t believe in private schools and they are almost reverses. When im out with the school mums we don’t talk about this at all- we do talk about house renovations, holidays , and all the other lovely things in life! This topic really doesn’t come up and we’re the ones who will be affected.

@Seenandheard I think it really stems from jealousy! too many people on this group are so jealous of the people who can afford private education, a couple of cars, foreign holidays etc etc while they are stuck in a rut living on dole money, having never made the effort to better themselves! you can see this in some of the posts. it is evident. I dont think I should have to share my wealth with anyone but my family. it is bad enough that we have to share it all with the taxman. taxed on earning, taxed on savings, council tax, taxed on everything we purchase, tax on things we sell. taxed when we die. taxed to death!!!

Agreed, but how do we get state education to the level that it is in private across the board? Every single school in my borough is absolutely terrible: overcrowded, underfunded, subjects cut, SEN cut, they have now cut teachers assistants. I don’t want to send my child to private but I have to because it is awful. How do I affect that to change? I have lobbied hard to improve education in our area and it’s done nothing. So because of this, should I send my son to a school that I find terrible or stand by the inequality that dislike in this country? And no, I’m not excessively rich. Just because you send your child to private school, doesn’t automatically make me rich. I don’t own a home or a car or have much savings. If that’s your idea of rich, I find it a little odd. I am not against the VAT, but it is quite a pointless thing from a business point of view. It’s a small amount in the sea of debt the government inherited.

lol Christ don’t feed them 🤣 they’ll attack.

Presumably Labour are proposing this VAT to close the loophole on a business.

Not as social engineering, and certainly not as some sort of bitter class revenge on the middle classes. After all, even Labour (including Starmer himself) includes plenty of wealthy people and plenty of people who went to private school and send their kids private.

VAT is generally levied on goods that are considered 'luxuries' or 'not essential'. E.g plain biscuits are not VATable. chocolate biscuits are.

The VAT on Waitrose Belgian Choccy Woccy Costalot Cookies or Fortnum and Mason Single Estate Chocolate Covered Digestives isn't a bitter jealous attack on the middle classes by a government that hates the success of people that can afford them - it's a recognition that they are not essential. Private school isn't essential - every child is entitled to a place in a state school.

VAT on private schools is arguably closing a loophole that has benefitted wealthier people for decades.

The anomaly is educational services are exempt. AFAIK. They will presumably deal with this.

They are dealing with loopholes and anomalies - just as the anomaly of VAT on tampons was adjusted by the tories.

Yes, and we are not in the EU

Businesses which do not benefit society eg charities pay tax.

If schools need to spaces to accommodate private

1 Yes but I don't think it matters except it may be a little harder to get a grammar school place but grammar school isn't very fair either (no poor kids there). I don't believe it will make much difference - the cost of living crisis has already cut private school pupil numbers round here, we have good state schools so I think those who could only marginally afford it have probably already left.

2 No but it doesn't bother me. Private school and tutoring is a luxury, it can be taxed.

Have 3 DC in private school - don’t intellectually object to the VAT. I am paying for a luxury good in many ways and it seems reasonable that I am taxed on it. I have the option not to pay it and to send my children elsewhere.

I would prefer to see more indirect tax and less direct tax

obviously it’s a bit of a blow personally to the sums - but am fortunate that it eats in to our holidays and treats budget rather than the nuts and bolts of life.

obviously I’ve chosen private schools because I see the enormous advantages in many ways. One of the things I love for my children is that most of the other parents there are SO invested and involved. We might be taking away a financial burden by removing our privately educated children from the system - but we’re also creaming off really invested parents who are energetically involved in school events etc - I think that ones a hard one to realistically quantify.

no idea about the law.

I think they already did. Though u think the point is: define your version of “rich” and define your version of a “good education.” Every answer would be different. My idea of rich is if you owned a three bedroom house in Blackheath, owned a car, had two children in private education and went on three holidays a year. I assure you, I’m not rich. I’m a Londoner. It is ridiculously expensive right now. Good education for me is small class sizes, great pastoral care, children being kind and well mannered, encouraging teachers, lots of staff and a wealth of classes they can take. It’s really about perception.

That was in answer to the first question, no I don't think it will be a big deal to absorb a less than 7% increase in pupils if their parents can't afford to send them to private school any more.

I think it's more "morally disgraceful" for you to be content that, in your opinion, 93% of our children are fucked! But, hey ho, your kids are OK at private school!

@Ijngfcbjh keir starmer was actually appointed a queens counsel at the young age of only 39 so he has been very well paid for years!!

I’m not sure I’d class two teachers or two nurses as rich. If both parents earn 35k a year as a teacher and out of that 70k a year they spend 12k a year on school fees so basically live as though they earn 58k as a household income with a small mortgage on a small 3 bed terrace house then are they really classed as rich? In economic terms are they not closer the neighbours earning a similar amount but using the state school than to the super wealthy parents of boarders?

Also, where I used to live in Trafford, it was the state grammar schools that were considered the best, not just locally but one in top 5 nationally. House prices absolutely reflected that. So those kids more certainly were receiving a “better” education due to parental wealth. My local state primary had a catchment of houses costing upwards of half a million and this was years ago as my kids are now university age.

too many people on this group are so jealous of the people who can afford private education, a couple of cars, foreign holidays etc etc while they are stuck in a rut living on dole money, having never made the effort to better themselves!

This is Mumsnet, not Benefit Street. Most people on here are educated professionals.

Although I'll admit I haven't made much of an effort to 'better myself' as I was fairly privileged in the first place.

Thank you for that - interesting.

So it is a simple matter of closing a loophole that has enabled Private Schools not to charge VAT until now?

When this comes out in the wash, the same proportions of kids will go to private and state schools as is currently the case. Many schools will absorb most of the price increase. Some won't because they don't have to. It's a tax break. It's going. Get used to it.

On the EU point, there is a certain irony to the fact this is the only meaningful point of divergence that has taken place, but the Brexit champions at the Telegraph hate it!