I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

Given the number of school age children is falling year on year, I think your worries about capacity are misplaced.

Cleaners, retail staff and binmen could send their kids to private school for free on assisted places, before Labour abolished them in the late 90s.

My dh's mum was a cleaner. He went to a private school for free. He will never, ever vote Labour because of what they did to assisted places.

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

I don't think that's true? EU law requires VAT to be charged on some activities but permits it not be charged on school fees. Which doesn't mean it stops VAT being charged?

Mindfully ignorant if you actually think that. The vast majority of private schools are scrapping by, possibly in debt due to falling birth rates and rising expenses. Many can’t fill their places and have closed down in recent years, and will continue to do so. Displacing hundreds of children.

Not a good enough reason. Try again.

Yes, they are not subsidised by the state in anyway.

We aren't talking about what happened 30 years ago.

So....one of my daughters was born in a high birth year, is currently school age and will have 7 or 8 years school remaining.

People keep quoting falling birth rates however while that may be true for those entering sxhool in 4 years time, where are the surplus spaces for her year appearing from and the other years currently pressured.

Really irritates me on mumsnet that the boomers think if you can’t afford the increase then you shouldn’t be at private school.

Some private schools cost 45k per year, even some prep schools in London cost 30k per year and that starts at 4. If you have 3 DC privately educated then that could be an increase of up to 27K p/a.

And there have been lots of stereotyped views of private schools and private school pupils in this thread. Not one private school parent has ever said anything derogatory about one of my DC’s being educated in a state school. But I have lost a few “friends” over the decision to send my DC to a private school. One of them, after criticising my DC’s private school and telling me how wonderful her DC’s state school was turned up at the private school a few years later when she decided the state school wasn’t as good as she thought it was. Weird considering that she insisted that my DC’s private school had a huge bullying problem!

Exactly, there are all these tales of hardship, of how terribly awful state schools are, we must tax the rich kids to improve our poor little state schools, we must have the sharp elbowed middle class come in to improve our poor little state schools. A load of BS

Are we so weak and helpless that we can't take responsibility for this ourselves, or must we throw ourselves on the mercy of the private school parents to save us with their checkbooks and elbows. It's just all a bit pathetic tbh.

And I'm yet to see how in practice, this will actually make any real difference. Optimistic estimates are that schools will get an increase of 0.5% in their budget, and that's if this money is ringfenced - RR hasn't said that it definitely will be. So my child will get a 0.5% better education, if money given to schools directly relates to quality of provision and outcomes. Have labour said how they will directly measure the impact of this specific policy to gauge its success or failure?

So IFS quotes to suit your argument are ok but not the other way round.🙄

1/1/2 billion ring fenced for education is not a tiny amount and a start. They have said in the medium to long term it will be more beneficial .

The amount of privately educated kids is tiny,3% of tiny is tinier still.

You’re trying to make something out of nothing.

And you want people to feel sorry for rich parents paying £150k in school fees!🤣

1. We're not part of the EU. So who cares?

https://www.luctonschool.org/equestrian/

This will really throw hatred my way I'm sure however we are one of those parents, London based and 5 children in private school. The cumulative affect of VAT on their fees together is potentially 1 of their fees.

I'm not looking for sympathy at all, we certainly are very privileged as a family...I'm here for the debate and orginally to educate and be educated but its all getting a bit nasty which is a shame.

6000 hospitality businesses closed in 2023. There have been other factors, such as wage increases, energy increases, food inflation, interest rates, etc but a big part of it has been the high rate of VAT. Remember it was introduced at 8%. I don’t want any business to go bust because of taxation but why are school staff to be particularly protected when hospitality and retail staff are losing their jobs hand over fist? You are asking other businesses to pay more so private schools can pay nothing, but you pretend to care about jobs?

I think it really stems from jealousy! too many people on this group are so jealous of the people who can afford private education, a couple of cars, foreign holidays etc etc while they are stuck in a rut living on dole money, having never made the effort to better themselves! you can see this in some of the posts. it is evident. I dont think I should have to share my wealth with anyone but my family. it is bad enough that we have to share it all with the taxman. taxed on earning, taxed on savings, council tax, taxed on everything we purchase, tax on things we sell. taxed when we die. taxed to death!!!

This post made me chuckle. Here's hoping its author never needs to call the police, set foot in a hospital, rely on armed forces to protect us, run a business employing cheap (state subsidised) and probably state educated staff who need their poverty wages topped up to survive, eat food grown by farmers receiving subsidies, travel through an airport with a border control, drive on public roads, claim a state pension, had the bins collected....

I could go on

1. Yes, but not everything is about money
2. Yes, but it is a very different landscape in the European countries I know of. Not comparable at all.

If you've got a spare £15k to drop on the luxury of private education, you're not experiencing financial difficulties.

This

I know! The ignorance is astounding!

Oh, yes, I'm sure most people on MN are on the dole!

People like that don't understand that many of us think there is more to life than money. There are things like principles and morals. It's not all just about money, cars, foreign holidays and tax avoidance!

Sunshineandpool

I honestly swear... I'm not jealous. Dh and i bring in 300k a year between us. Can easily afford private.

Don't. Believe. In. It.

Uk birth rates peaked in 2012. So secondary school rolls are starting to fall. Unless we are talking about 6th form colleges, then it is already true for all those entering new schools at the regular entry points.

One school. How many private schools have equestrian centes?! Many are very small in buildings not much bigger than a house with limited outside space. Even the most expensive private school in the county that I live in doesn’t have equestrian facilities. It doesn’t even have a farm whereas my old comp did have a farm!