I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

No, they just invented other taxes to put on holidays and travel insurances instead.

Link?
Your previous link was written in 2019 and about the abolition of private education.

Kier Starmer’s human rights legal credentials are pretty good.😂

@thefireplace

Tax on travel insurance is a tiny part of a holiday cost (which many people foolishly don't even bother with). APD is far less than the equivalent VAT. Tax on a first class flight to Australia is around £200.

They can't, no, but if the ECHR (it's not EHCR) finds against, then it would be the very first time the UK gov't ignored that advisory. So yes, it's a legal debate.

And Coventions don't set out what should happen in all scenarios. That's why we need lawyers and courts. I don't personally think the private schools would win on this one either, but neither you nor I will be deciding this and as a lot of the world actually subsidises private schools (in Australia, for example, the money follows the child, and so 36% of kids are privately educated; in Denmark there are tax breaks, etc etc) I think the assumption that a European court won't hold that it's an attack on educational pluralism might be misplaced. The private school system in this country really does entrench privilege, agreed, but in countries with a less rigid class system it may be viewed in more parental choice and state control terms, and the ECHR isn't populated by British judges. I simply don't know what they'll do. I don't think anyone does. As is usually the case when new areas of law are being tested.

Interestingly, Greece tried to apply VAT to schools in 2015, but backed down when it was a bit of a disaster, legally and PR wise. They also only have 7% independent schools. I don't know much about it, quite honestly, but perhaps there are lessons to be drawn?

I do think this policy is largely a sop to the base and little more. Especially if, as another poster says, the input VAT will become reclaimable so the money newly made from output VAT will be matched by reductions in input.

I don't have a problem with it, as long as there are fair SEN exemptions in there. But I do think it's a PR move more than a fiscal one. As shown by the engagement with the idea.

"I think it's alarming so many did support Reform, given what some of their candidates came out with. Racist commentary, misogynist commentary, and a particular highlight was one telling the parent of autistic twins that autistic people are vegetables."

Well I wholeheartedly agree with you here.

I just disagree that the outcome would have been different if Reform hadn't stood. The YouGov pollling shows the high levels of disaffection with the Conservatives -

Our data suggests that many Reform UK voters are not benign about the Tories – they are belligerent. Three quarters (74%) say they have an unfavourable opinion of the Conservatives with 41% being “very unfavourable”. This compares to just a fifth (22%) who are favourable to the Tories. These voters have a similar view of the Prime Minister, splitting 76% to 22% unfavourable towards Rishi Sunak.
Further, when asked whether they’d prefer a Conservative or Labour government after the next election, 75% refuse to chose one, saying either outcome would be as bad as the other. One in five (19%) say they’d prefer a Conservative government over a Labour government, while 4% say they’d prefer Labour.

@Shaketherombooga

"No, nor should it be. Taxes are supposed to benefit all of us with decent public services."

I agree that taxes are supposed to benefit all of us with decent public services.

But taxing private school parents doesn't benefit them (not that anyone gives a shit about the wealthy) and secondly introducing a tax that looks like it will cost more to implement than it raises in tax revenue just to "punish" the wealthy is both fiscally deeply flawed and also "bashing the rich" is deeply divisive in society.

"They can't, no, but if the ECHR (it's not EHCR) finds against, then it would be the very first time the UK gov't ignored that advisory. So yes, it's a legal debate. "

Not a legal debate as the Government is free to ignore any decision.

A political debate absolutely.

I agree with you but you’re in a minority. It’s bad for state school kids because of the numbers too. There will be potentially independent school children that move across to the better state schools, either entirely, for secondary, or for sixth form, often at the expense of those who were always going to be state schooled having to go to a school that wasn’t their first option. Not many, but it’s already happening.

Also, some independent schools will increase their international student intake, so their numbers will stay the same overall, but domestic students will move into the state system.

But you’re right, it’s a horribly divisive policy that they seem hell bent on implementing in the most callous fashion, and the benefits to the state system will be negligible or worse.

There are soooo many posts explaining why this won’t happen.

Yes I know both points and don't think it's changes my view on the policy.

I think children from private schools moving to state schools would benefit the state system. More of a collective reason to invest in them and make them as good as possible.

We aren't in the EU anymore and our country is deeply held back by inequality and class division in a way a lot of Europe isn't. Private schools are such a big part of that and the UK would be much better without them.

I do feel huge empathy for the children and families this will cause upheaval too but it's a small price to pay and I doubt that many will move.

it’s a horribly divisive policy

And private schooling isn’t horribly divisive?

But childless people also pay taxes for schools they will never use, just as those who use almost exclusively private healthcare pay taxes for the NHS. People who will never need in work or out of work welfare support likewise pay for it for others. An educated, fed, housed and healthy population has wider social benefits for us all.

1. I don't care, I don't have kids. The (last) government has spent £700m on Rwanda and pissed away billions on dodgy contracts and schemes. I also pay tax for a million other things that have 0 influence to me and that I don't use.
2. We're not in the EU.

Additionally, it's a tax loophole for people who own private schools to avoid paying ridiculous amounts of tax. I had a boss who owned one for that reason - he had several companies and it allowed him to do all sorts and save paying literal six figures of tax. So closing the loophole will save far, far more money.

Most consumer goods cost a lot more now than they did a few years ago. Businesses selling them still pass the VAT on and no-one expects them not to. What's your point?

For 1) I'm not sure this is even correct overall
for 2) Who cares what the EU does the UK chose to leave the EU

I didn't vote Labour but wanted a Labour government.
I am not the only person in my constituency in this position.

Fortunately we have a measure of that, its called inflation.

I didn’t say consumer goods didn’t cost a lot more now, I said private school fees have risen at a much higher rate than any other consumer good – more than double the rate. That’s my point, which I made entirely clear.

Private schools themselves are pricing themselves out of the middle class market, which is the market struggling most with the VAT hike, because appealing to the super wealthy with increasing spend on higher-class facilities (an increase of £500 million across all private schools spent on music and sports facilities alone) is more beneficial to them. The majority could easily decrease their fees to make the VAT hike more palatable to those parents ‘struggling’. But, as above, by raising their fees by almost 600% from 1997–2013 alone (compared to an average raise of 200% across other consumer goods during the same time period), they have certainly made it clear that coming across as financially palatable to anyone other than the wealthy is not in their priorities.

A financially ‘struggling’ school parent should look no further than the doorstep of their school if they want to truly understand why they are being priced out.

Agree with you and @Bushmillsbabe too

Indeed. The message was crystal clear to any voter wanting a Labour government – vote tactically. It worked.

1. i do know and I don’t care.
2. its not quite as simple as that……

At the end of the day, I just don’t think we should have private schools, with incredible facilities for the mega wealthy, while nearby state schools are left to rot with RAC concrete, insufficient facilities and struggling to attract teachers. Every child should be able to access a great education, with a level playing field for all.

if that means that some children have to mix with the ‘normal’ children, then all for the better. Might make them realise that not everyone out there has as much money and privileges as they do.

Well let's wait and see, if Labour are ready in time for the Autumn statement it's only a short wait to see who formalises their challenges that Labours bill, that we dont know the detail of yet, will contravene sufficiently to challenge. It isn't the same as a school putting their fees up, it is a government applied tax that is singling out one form of education over all others, including private nurseries, private tuition, private training camps, private holiday clubs, private universities. It's singular aim if the discussions to date are carried forward to a bill are to penalise private school education alone between the age of 5 and 18.

If you are genuinely interested have a read back to labours first attempt at this in the 80s, where they took advice to stand back from persuing further. Then read article 2, protocol 1 and case history.

Taking away tax breaks isn’t punishing. It’s just being fair. The rest of us mugs pay VAT on services, why on earth should private school customers be any different.

It isn't a tax break or a loophole or any of the other rhetoric that Labour have used. Education is exempt from VAT. Currently.

We are not in the EU we remain signatories of the ECHR.