I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

God, Tory underthinking at its finest.

Hi OP I agree but I think one question you didn’t ask was do people realise this is going to COST more than it will gain. It absolutely will therefore I hope the OBR are able to display this in their review and then the Government are advised to not bring it in.

I also believe the government will fail on the Human Rights point as we remain signatories to the ECHR.

@Didimum I never said you hated anyone. I said as this thread shows. Maybe read my comments before inferring.

And I don't think your DH being an economist is relevant unless he has a hotline to Rachel Reeves. There isn't enough information about this policy for anyone to understand fully all the implications right now. The schools themselves don't all have their ducks in a row.

Your comment earlier about schools 'choosing' to pass on the VAT is also odd. That's not how VAT works. Would you expect your builder to absorb it because you couldn't afford to pay it? Or Tesco? These are both examples of businesses which pass VAT onto their customers. No one expects them to absorb VAT but the Labour trope is that private schools should. Why?

We’re not asking you to feel sorry for us - no idea why people post about it trying to rally people on board and change their minds …. As it It makes fuck all difference to us as we are wealthy. We will pay it and carry on with our lives

Could you link to the part of the EHCR that indicates this will fail as I can’t see anything at all. Starmer was a human rights lawyer so I’d have thought he’d have a pretty good working knowledge of it.

@Curryle3af you're right, this has nothing to do with the EU, I don't know why people keep saying it does.

It is however possibly in contravention of the ECHR which Labour has signalled is important to them. I say possibly as there are different opinions on this.

Could you link please to where it contravenes the EHCR.

@Curryle3af just Google it. It's to do with plurality of education. There's plenty online already been discussed about it if you're genuinely interested

Have done and have seen nothing. I’m not the one declaring it contravenes EHCR, you are so perhaps you could link.

The Telegraph says Lord Pannick thinks the ECHR stops Labour putting VAT on private school fees.

He's wrong, and I think almost every tax lawyer will agree with me.

Thread:

The most important point is a practical one: ECHR challenges can override acts of Ministers/public officials, but can't override Acts of Parliament.

🧵 continues here

x.com/danneidle/status/1806732365684732050?s=46&t=Uw4lJNwxFZFnX0Xs3doHYg

Those against private education in this country are driven by envy and Class. Proletariat will always be against. And education is obviously not business, so I agree with OP, it must never be taxed.

@Curryle3af There are threads on MN already discussing this with all the relevant info.

'Labour's private school tax raid 'likely illegal'

Can't link as on phone but look for that thread.

It's also been in the mainstream press. Maybe refine your search rather than demanding links?

I also didn't declare anything; I commented that it possibly contravened the ECHR but that there were differing opinions. I suspect those who support the policy will look for arguments that it isn't an issue; those who don't will veer towards arguments that is could be an issue.

Dan Neidle is famously socialist and pretty much hates anyone who does every penny they earn in tax so no surprise that he sees absolutely no issue with it.

@Curryle3af

There are endless articles on this, which come up if you google "ECHR VAT school fees". Here's one.

www.counselmagazine.co.uk/articles/abolishing-private-schools-and-redistributing-their-assets-social-justice-at-the-expense-of-human-rights

‘Those against private education in this country are driven by envy and Class. Proletariat will always be against. And education is obviously not business, so I agree with OP, it must never be taxed.’

Is this a serious post in 2024? Does it upset you that the proles don’t doff their flat caps at you as you ride past in your carriage?

Really, they should know their place!

It does still astound me that after weeks and weeks of these threads, some private school parents still seem to be so upset that most people simply do not care, or that they think this policy is a good one. It's such a tiny niche of people that will be affected that's going to raise at least 1 billion a year. Most people want the highest earners to be paying fair taxes, that's why the labour manifesto was about closing tax loopholes.

Exactly that! Only 32% of voters voted Labour. The rest split votes for other parties, which is why Labour emerged as most voted unit. We’re governed by minority.

Dan Neidle's thread (linked below) debunks the theory that the ECHR will find against the government. But even if it did the ECHR cannot overrule acts of Parliament.

Parliament is sovereign (as it always has been).

As for concern about divergence from EU regulation - their key concerns will be trade related.

Private schools very much are businesses.

Said article was about abolishing private education
and was written in 2019. VAT isn’t abolishing private education.

Tactical voting.

Oooh, that's really interesting. So input VAT from now on will be reclaimable, as a business expense?

I'm not opposed to VAT on private schools (with exemptions for kids with SEN, where it can be demonstrated that they need smaller scale settings), but surely this also means that the gains from the policy will be far less than claimed?

1. Yes, I do. Also, I notice that private schools are keeping very quiet about the many (and well established) arrangements by which potential VAT liabilities can be reduced.
2. It seems to have escaped your notice that the UK is no longer in the EU.

No, I think it's more that Reform split the Tory vote.

Which means Nigel Farage won the election for Labour.

@NotAlexa "Those against private education in this country are driven by envy and Class"

Bollocks.

Finally, something Nigel did right.