I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

Actually the calculation of how much VAT on school fees would bring into the treasury was done by the IFS, rather than the Labour Party, but I guess you know better than all those highly qualified economists?

Just to clarify the issue for the government isn't the EU, it is the European Convention on Human Rights it contravenes. This is adhered to by tbe Council of Europe, of which the UK is a founding member. Quite a separate thing, it is not linked to being in the EU member states .

To implement VAT charges on education, we will contravene this. Labour supports the European Convention on Human Rights, as did the conservatives. So contravening a key policy is a complication they have not addressed to date.

It's a little more complex than that. Some legal opinion holds that we will be in breach if taxing private education, as no other educational provision is taxed and the ECHR protects plurality of educational opportunity. Other legal opinion holds that charitable tax relief is not a right related to education - that the independent sector will still be available if that charitable tax relief is removed, so plurality would not be affected (affordability is an existing barrier to accessing private ed, so arguing increased unaffordability is a red herring). It's not clear-cut at all that we will contravene the ECHR on this.

I find this offensive -likewise the comments that state school parents haven’t “bettered theirselves” and living off the dole.

DH and I are teachers. I have “bettered” myself as I grew up on benefits, lived in a council house and was on SS’ radar.

I guess we could afford private education but I believe in the state as it helped me become what I am today.

What awful sneering attitudes.

All this discussion of fairness is a massive red herring. Principally governments should try to raise the minimum of tax they can for effective public services in the least painful and most sustainable way.

Is it “fair” that the top 1% pay 30% of all income tax or is it “fair” the bottom 50% pay just 9% Of all income tax? It’s kind of hard to argue and all in the eye of the beholder.

I’m hoping it may bring some of those sharp elbowed parents into the state sector to push things and try and improve things for all.

Eurgh I hate this notion.

So using this principle, do you think children's clothes, and food should also have VAT added? After all, tge companies selling these zero rated goods are also making a profit. The VAT is nothing to do with the schools making a profit, they will pay taxes on the profit as any business would. The VAT is charged on the customer's of the business. The business is just the tax collector.

This. 100%.

Private schools do pay input VAT (unlike state schools who can claim it back). This policy is about output VAT which is payable by parents, not the schools.

Wealth tax?

Clearly not fair, the solution is that the top 1% stop paying themselves so much and start paying the other 99% a proper wage.

I'm pretty sure VAT is already charged on foreign holidays...

OP answer these questions yes or no:

1. Do you realise that once registered for VAT, private schools will be able to recover their considerable input VAT.

1. That most of them are keeping quiet about this.

1. Because while it won't fully close the gap, it suits them to be disingenuous about the amount of cost they are considering passing to parents.

1. Most of them, being profit making, could swallow the residual cost after recovering input VAT through cost savings or marginally reduced profits.

1. Just as ending the tax break is a choice, so too is your sacred school choosing to pass the costs to you rather than ti soak it up.

What do you know, this turned into a multi page bun fight. 🙄

1. pretty much everyone knows. Pretty much nobody cares unless they’re paying for independent schooling.

2. most people don’t know and don’t care.

I find it a bit scary how many people glibly, proudly even, declare they’re “against” private education entirely and want to abolish our right to independent education. Once an authoritarian government has complete control of the resourcing and content of all education, our future is a bleak one. Mumsnet of all places ought to better understand the importance a free market for ideas.

@cheerypip there is no UK VAT payable on foreign holidays.

1. Yes
2. Is nowhere near as clear cut legally as the Telegraph would have you believe

The schools I have experience of aren't keeping quiet about the ability to reclaim input VAT. They are saying that it might beep mitigate the effective fee increase. The issue is that the majority of schools' costs are staff costs, with no attached input VAT. Many schools, especially the smaller, cheaper independent schools, will be very limited in the amount they can reclaim. There are also many schools which don't make a profit.

Thanks. I didn't know that. Haven't been able to afford a holiday for years!

Yes, I saw the calculations. At best I think the projections were it would raise 1% of the total school budget, a realistic projection was around 0.5% of the school budget. Seeing children suffer for a possible 0.5% improvement in my children's education - not something I am particularly happy about.
But I wasn't talking specifically talking about budgets. 2 schools can have identical budgets from the government and provide a very different standard of schooling. My daughters school has an average of 20-22 children per class, and therefore gets a lower amount of funding, as the majority of school funding is on a per pupil basis. The other school in the village is full so gets much more funding. That school is from a more affluent demographic, many of whom don't want to send their children to my daughters school as it takes from the main council estate and from the traveller site, so we have fewer pupils. But the attainment and ofsted at ours is much better, and we much preferred the inclusive school ethos.
Our catchment would be seen as more challenging, our funding is lower, but we have happier better behaved pupils and higher attainment due to excellent leadership, high quality and number of staff (the head looks at alternative income streams to fund these, not government money).
So focusing on this magic 0.5% increase in funding, rather than on the root causes of struggling schools (poor leadership, poor parental engagement, mental health challenges) is going to fail our children. Well not mine as they attend a fantastic state school, but fail many many children.
It's like a dr not taking the time to properly diagnose - the treatment will not be effective and the patient will get worse rather than better

Do you think it's fair for some children to get a better education because their parents are rich?

1. Yes. 7 per cent of parents are choosing to send their children to private school because state education isn't good enough for their child/ children. They are not doing so for altruistic reasons, so to state altruistic reasoning in your op is disingenuous in the extreme. They do it knowing that their children's near certain guarantee of success in life depend on it. Private schools are businesses, it's that simple.

1. Yes. Kind of a moot point though, seeing as we're no longer a member of the EU. I knew there had to be one positive of Brexit, at least. Most EU countries don't have the same enormous level of wealth and educational difference that we have here in the UK. The deeply entrenched perpetuation of the belief (and reality) that wealth and privilege equals success needs challenging.

I do care, as a state school parent, as I see this policy being harmful to state school children, not due to numbers, but due to the huge focus on it. A bit earlier on this thread I stated the 4 main points of the labour education manifesto, of which private school fees was one. There were 2 other points on it which would have been doable without harming anyone and would have had much more impact, but they choose to lead with the divisive headline grabbing one, which is such a shame.

No I don't. I think it's more unfair that there is such inequality within the state sector though. I don't think it's fair that some children can access an excellent state education whereas others are left with failing schools purely because of their postcode. Taxpayer funded services should not be a postcode lottery. Some areas of the country offer academically selective or single sex state schools. In other areas, the only way for parents to access that option is to pay privately. Why should some parents be able to access those schools at no cost, and yet others have to pay?

I didn’t say they don’t segregate. I said they don’t segregate as severely. I also said I oppose them, but grammars aren’t the schools up for such hot debate right now, are they? I would also support their removal.

I’m also sick to the back teeth of people trying the ‘small indie school’ argument. Yes, I know. I have lived near several of them. I have known several adults and children who have attended them. I am sick of people thinking anyone who opposes private education is thick-skulled enough to think Eton is the only brand of private school AND I’m sick of people crying ‘jealousy’ or ‘politics of envy’. I could easily afford to send my two children through the private system – I don’t and I never would have as I do not agree with the concept. And if they have to exist at all, I certainly don’t agree that they should get benefit from any tax breaks. End of.

I had presumed that my dreadful SPAG would indicate that I was, in fact, being incredibly sarcastic.

However the sentiment remains, as in those against private education / for VAT are often accused as just being jealous or indeed hating on anyone who is deemed as having done better.