Page 4 | Just Stop Oil Jailed

OlgaBracley · 2024-07-18T18:53:35+00:00

What wonderful news! I bet they can hardly believe it. Nor can I but I am thrilled-unlike them.

Hoppinggreen · 19/07/2024 12:28

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 12:00

Well that’s where we disagree

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Totally Ok with that

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 12:33

GeneralPeter · 19/07/2024 12:25

Alternative actions:

properly priced carbon taxes/trading, including border adjustments, hypothecated against income taxes to make it politically saleable;
drop the over-regulation of nuclear to make it economic, with a multi-decade building programme of power plants (like France did succesfully) to capture economies of scale, made popular becuase of the cheaper energy this would afford for all;
solar at scale, though I suspect normal market economics will supply this given how fast solar technology is advancing;
significantly increased R&D in carbon capture and storage, which is undersupplied becuase it is a public good. Not sure how to make this happen at the scale needed, realistically, but carbon trading, prizes, and international coordination mechanisms need to be part of it;
I'm not sure what to do about China and India, which is a massive gap in my plans, but acting in coordination with the US and EU will be a start. Much easier said than done.
Focus on adaptation, to reduce the human cost of climate change.

The issue is the the above all need significant public support. XR/JSO's actions are almost certainly increasing public opposition, making the above less likely.

We saw the right wing parties (and the right of the Tories) try out anti-green populism at the last election. I think XR is playing exactly into their hands.

It would also help if we had a green party and environmentalist movement that was evidence-based and at peace with market solutions. But they mostly seem to enjoy environmentalism for the counter-cultural vibes, not results, and distracted by other issues.

What's your theory of change, i.e. how does blocking motorways create better climate results? What are the intermediate steps?

Motorway blocked... people angry at XR/JSO.... climate better?

Edited

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Totally agree with your suggestions. These are things that the government would have to implement, resisting pressure from Big Oil etc.
They won’t do these things in any hurry without intense public pressure.

Which is where Just Stop Oil’s intentions lie - to raise public awareness. I understand they piss a lot of people off, but if they didn’t they would be completely ignored in the media.

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 12:35

The Tories were granting new oil and gas licenses until recently.

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 12:37

They felt able to do so because they know the UK public wouldn’t make a peep. And direct their anger at JSO instead

GeneralPeter · 19/07/2024 12:53

@Thulpelly

They won’t do these things in any hurry without intense public pressure. Which is where Just Stop Oil’s intentions lie - to raise public awareness. I understand they piss a lot of people off, but if they didn’t they would be completely ignored in the media.

The thing is, there is already widespread awareness of climate change as an issue, so getting media coverage isn't the main point.

Survey evidence suggests their actions reduce public support. i.e. they are actively making things worse. That makes them greater climate villains than most of the public they harangue, though they may feel more virtuous.

XR: 75% fame, 17% popularity:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/explore/not-for-profit/ExtinctionRebellion

Insulate Britain: 73% think their actions hinder their cause, 5% helps.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/38639-three-weeks-motorway-climate-change-protests-publi

JSO: 42% very unfavourable, 4% very favourable.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2023/07/06/57ab9/2

The protestors presumably see this data. The fact they continue makes me think they either don't seriously believe in their cause, or they are blinded by other motivations.

Now if your goal is to feel maximally virtuous, then making everyone else more villainous (actively reducing their support for climate measures) makes psychological sense.

Three weeks into motorway climate change protests, public opposition has only grown | YouGov

Insulate Britain protesters have spent the past three weeks blocking junctions on various motorways

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/38639-three-weeks-motorway-climate-change-protests-publi

Megifer · 19/07/2024 12:57

Best news I've heard all day 🙌

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 13:18

GeneralPeter · 19/07/2024 12:53

@Thulpelly

They won’t do these things in any hurry without intense public pressure. Which is where Just Stop Oil’s intentions lie - to raise public awareness. I understand they piss a lot of people off, but if they didn’t they would be completely ignored in the media.

The thing is, there is already widespread awareness of climate change as an issue, so getting media coverage isn't the main point.

Survey evidence suggests their actions reduce public support. i.e. they are actively making things worse. That makes them greater climate villains than most of the public they harangue, though they may feel more virtuous.

XR: 75% fame, 17% popularity:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/explore/not-for-profit/ExtinctionRebellion

Insulate Britain: 73% think their actions hinder their cause, 5% helps.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/38639-three-weeks-motorway-climate-change-protests-publi

JSO: 42% very unfavourable, 4% very favourable.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2023/07/06/57ab9/2

The protestors presumably see this data. The fact they continue makes me think they either don't seriously believe in their cause, or they are blinded by other motivations.

Now if your goal is to feel maximally virtuous, then making everyone else more villainous (actively reducing their support for climate measures) makes psychological sense.

Edited

Interesting stats, maybe that’s why the judge felt he could give them such harsh sentences - the public don’t like them, so they can be punished disproportionately. Bit of a dangerous precedent there too.

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 13:19

GeneralPeter · 19/07/2024 12:53

@Thulpelly

They won’t do these things in any hurry without intense public pressure. Which is where Just Stop Oil’s intentions lie - to raise public awareness. I understand they piss a lot of people off, but if they didn’t they would be completely ignored in the media.

The thing is, there is already widespread awareness of climate change as an issue, so getting media coverage isn't the main point.

Survey evidence suggests their actions reduce public support. i.e. they are actively making things worse. That makes them greater climate villains than most of the public they harangue, though they may feel more virtuous.

XR: 75% fame, 17% popularity:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/explore/not-for-profit/ExtinctionRebellion

Insulate Britain: 73% think their actions hinder their cause, 5% helps.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/38639-three-weeks-motorway-climate-change-protests-publi

JSO: 42% very unfavourable, 4% very favourable.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2023/07/06/57ab9/2

The protestors presumably see this data. The fact they continue makes me think they either don't seriously believe in their cause, or they are blinded by other motivations.

Now if your goal is to feel maximally virtuous, then making everyone else more villainous (actively reducing their support for climate measures) makes psychological sense.

Edited

What do you think their ‘other motivations’ might be?

Domino20 · 19/07/2024 13:20

OlgaBracley · 19/07/2024 10:55

Those dinosaurs got what was coming to them...they didn't care about net zero and so they were wiped out.
All those times when you could walk from England to Spain-they didn't care about net zero and so the continents moved-serves them right-no more walking around the world!
All those crops failing in pre-revolutionary France, all because they would not stop driving and flying around. If only Marie Antoinette had cared about net zero- the crops wouldn't have failed, the people wouldn't have been fired up to complain about everything else and she would have died with her head in bed.

The planet changes. There has been an Ice Age-continents were connected. Wonderous beasts roamed the earth and died out. The Elizabethans suffered huge prices and famine because of many many summers where it pissed down.

Yes, there is change. There is meant to be otherwise we would be sharing the earth with dinosaurs and living in an Ice Age.

people are easy to fool and they have been fooled by fools who are clever enough to shut down argument by screaming, 'You're killing the earth. You're stealing my future'.

Tis bollocks and if it wasn't bollocks why haven't planes been banned-we managed without them for centuries.

The only thing overheating to destruction is these Net Zero brains.

Edited

Assuming you are correct, oil consumption and resultant emissions have no effect on climate change, do you agree that oil is finite? What's the plan for when it's all gone if we won't change our way of life to operate without it?

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 13:23

Domino20 · 19/07/2024 13:20

Assuming you are correct, oil consumption and resultant emissions have no effect on climate change, do you agree that oil is finite? What's the plan for when it's all gone if we won't change our way of life to operate without it?

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Don’t feed the trolls 🤣

FigTreeInEurope · 19/07/2024 13:23

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 12:00

Well that’s where we disagree

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If you believe the ends justifies the means, then the law is meaningless to you. A society without law, is no society at all. You cant cherry pick.

GeneralPeter · 19/07/2024 13:31

@Thulpelly
What do you think their ‘other motivations’ might be?

I think for some people, being a righteous warrior against the world is psychologically seductive. The more people oppose them, the more their virtue shines, in their own self-image. Making their view the boring consensus, by winning hearts and minds, would actually remove that.

You see something similar in the 'sheeple' rhetoric from conspiracy theorists. Others are just too stupid, or too selfish, to care. Not like me.

That partly explains I think why some people seem to switch from far-left to far-right and back. What they really want to be is a radical with a simple answer.

I'm only talking about a small fraction of environmentalists, of course, but it's a very visible bit. And odd that more mainstream environmentalists don't seem to disavow them, which would win some goodwill from the public I think.

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 13:34

FigTreeInEurope · 19/07/2024 13:23

If you believe the ends justifies the means, then the law is meaningless to you. A society without law, is no society at all. You cant cherry pick.

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I don’t think all laws are equal, nor are they always in line with morality.

The sentence for ‘conspiracy to block traffic’ is longer than some of those give sexual violence/violent crime.
I’m firmly against violence.

Conspiracy to block traffic, blocking the m25, throwing cornflour on monuments/painting? I’m comfortable with it. They knew the potential for jail time. I’m questioning the harshness of the sentence.

It’s not illegal for companies to dump raw sewage in the sea in certain conditions, does that mean it’s ok/right?

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 13:35

GeneralPeter · 19/07/2024 13:31

@Thulpelly
What do you think their ‘other motivations’ might be?

I think for some people, being a righteous warrior against the world is psychologically seductive. The more people oppose them, the more their virtue shines, in their own self-image. Making their view the boring consensus, by winning hearts and minds, would actually remove that.

You see something similar in the 'sheeple' rhetoric from conspiracy theorists. Others are just too stupid, or too selfish, to care. Not like me.

That partly explains I think why some people seem to switch from far-left to far-right and back. What they really want to be is a radical with a simple answer.

I'm only talking about a small fraction of environmentalists, of course, but it's a very visible bit. And odd that more mainstream environmentalists don't seem to disavow them, which would win some goodwill from the public I think.

Edited

I genuinely think most people involved are desperate/scared.

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/07/2024 13:35

robovacsareepic · 18/07/2024 20:49

Whatever you think about just stop oil those prison sentences are insane. 4 years for 4 of the and 5 for Hallam - for non violent protestors? It's crackers, totally wrong.

I'm with you.
I don't agree with JSO's methods generally, but IMO they get applauded for trying to bring attention to the global climatic and economic meltdown that is coming.
Their sentences are entirely disproportionate.
More to the point, it's a dangerous precedent that sends people to jail for peaceful protest.

marshmallowmix · 19/07/2024 13:38

They caused huge and widespread disruption never mind the costs invoked! Best news I’ve heard all day seeing the long sentences they got 👏!

Thulpelly · 19/07/2024 13:44

GeneralPeter · 19/07/2024 13:31

@Thulpelly
What do you think their ‘other motivations’ might be?

I think for some people, being a righteous warrior against the world is psychologically seductive. The more people oppose them, the more their virtue shines, in their own self-image. Making their view the boring consensus, by winning hearts and minds, would actually remove that.

You see something similar in the 'sheeple' rhetoric from conspiracy theorists. Others are just too stupid, or too selfish, to care. Not like me.

That partly explains I think why some people seem to switch from far-left to far-right and back. What they really want to be is a radical with a simple answer.

I'm only talking about a small fraction of environmentalists, of course, but it's a very visible bit. And odd that more mainstream environmentalists don't seem to disavow them, which would win some goodwill from the public I think.

Edited

I also think that the people doing so ARE the public, (even though I agree with you their methods aren’t working on the general population) they are acting with an urgency trying to raise awareness and encourage people to pressure corporations/governments.
They aren’t trying to muster goodwill from the public, they see ‘their’ cause as ‘your’ cause and are trying to disrupt ‘business as usual’ so we don’t collectively sleepwalk into oblivion. If we don’t have radicals, we shift our attention away from collective action and a sense of urgency on climate change.

CormorantStrikesBack · 19/07/2024 13:47

I don’t agree with their methods. To be honest throwing paint at artwork and Stonehenge and disrupting tennis matches infuriates me more than traffic disruption. They really get a lot of peoples backs up.

i do think they need punishment so as to deter others but not sure having a longer sentence than sex attackers is proportional.

ACynicalDad · 19/07/2024 14:10

I imagine JSO will be quite quiet this summer, and we can all live our lives without unnecessary disruption. It's a pity it took a couple of years for a sentence like this I hope the next bunch like this find this is the precedent after their first disruption. Protest all you like, but don't stop the rest of us getting on with our lives.

Lampslights · 19/07/2024 14:34

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/07/2024 13:35

I'm with you.
I don't agree with JSO's methods generally, but IMO they get applauded for trying to bring attention to the global climatic and economic meltdown that is coming.
Their sentences are entirely disproportionate.
More to the point, it's a dangerous precedent that sends people to jail for peaceful protest.

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I understand technically it is peaceful protest as no violence used, but their defacing, vandalism, disruption, is unacceptable . If they wish to peaceful protest they should do so, and stop with the weird publicity stunts trying to disrupt and cause the general public distress and hardship.

ginasevern · 19/07/2024 14:42

OlgaBracley · 18/07/2024 22:40

Oh yes, it is.
It's used by The Greater Inuit people and it's pronounced ar-say, It from an old Norse language carried across by traders and means 'day old fish'.
Commonly used there still I believe.
I often hear people say that it is a term used differently in the UK and that it's quite common. That may-or may not be- the case but, as you have just demonstrated, not everyone knows it in the UK sense, where it is mostly used by the lower orders.
I imagine you are more familiar with it in its Greater Inuit usage and this is why you're a bit confused. Perfectly understandable.

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What the fuck does any of that mean?

marshmallowmix · 19/07/2024 15:08

JSO were planning to disrupt flights this summer at Gatwick etc so families that have worked and saved all year to take kids away would’ve been caught up! It’s unfair added to all the other defacing at Stonehenge and shit they have done…anyone I speak to agrees tough sentences should deter them …it’s got so many people’s backs up! Enjoy your time inside it made my day 🤣🤣

EmbracingTheGrey · 19/07/2024 15:13

I think it's really sad. But maybe you'd be happy as a woman not to have the vote either? But I guess you're happy to have benefitted from those protests. But the planet, nah.... not worth it is it, if it inconveniences you. Sometimes, non violent protest is essential to effect change. How very sad that so many of you are revelling in this.

marshmallowmix · 19/07/2024 15:47

As usual @EmbracingTheGrey jumping to conclusions !

think they know it all…😦🙄and they do not

Everanewbie · 19/07/2024 15:52

Am I glad they went to prison? Yes. Do I think the sentences were excessive? Also yes. The message needs to be that you can't act with impunity, disrupting infrastructure, impacting the economy and so on. That said, I heard this morning of a man who violently mugged someone in London for a Rolex watch walk free with a ban from certain parts of London. That frustrates me. If ER are getting 5 years, that low life needs 25.

I have a degree of sympathy with the cause, but have an instinctive dislike for self-righteous middle class people with purple hair lecturing me, when we're all working so hard, getting up early, making sacrifices.

As Konstantin Kitin said, paraphrased, put your energies into finding transformative scientific advancement in energy generation, not as best ruining peoples fun, at worst risking lives.