To feel really gutted for England tonight?

[Acapulco12]

This Euros tournament has been quite a crazy ride for England and it’s a tournament I’d rather forget (partly because of the way that Gareth Southgate and the team have been treated by the British press and their own fans).

I think that whilst the team has loads of fantastic world-class players, they haven’t consistently played well as a team, either in the run-up (e.g. in the Iceland or Bosnia games) or in the tournament itself.

I really feel that the team only managed to get through to the final because of moments of individual brilliance (Jude Bellingham’s goal, Ollie Watkins’ goal, Pickford’s absolutely top-notch goalkeeping).

I’m also quite disappointed with elements of Gareth Southgate’s management even though I still really admire his leadership style, his achievements as England manager and his attitude. Southgate has - undeniably - produced consistently excellent results with this team, but they haven’t yet won anything with him, and ultimately they will be judged on winning. They have got close to winning on two occasions now with him, and he and they obviously care for and respect each other, but I don’t think that’s enough anymore (feels harsh to write that).

I think it’s time for the team to find a new manager and go in a new direction, but equally I think it will take time for a new manager to find their feet with England and I worry that the new manager will not be able to create the same sort of culture that Southgate did, which I think really helped to shape this current team and make them so successful.

I know that there can only be one winner in the Euros - just like in any sports competition - but I just really feel for the England players. I’ve followed them for a few years now, they come across as a really nice team and I feel really sorry that it didn’t work out for them tonight.

Focussing on the final tonight, Spain were clearly the better team tonight - and throughout the Euros. Having said that, I do feel quite sad that the England players couldn’t achieve the win they wanted. They obviously really really wanted to win, and I think the team’s performance has overshadowed the individual achievements and excellence of the England players that I mentioned earlier in the post.

I know there will be many more tournaments to come, probably for most players in the team as most of them are still very young and are full of potential, but they had so much expectation riding on them and they came pretty close to winning, having got to the final.

They should feel really proud of themselves for getting to the final and coming close to winning, but I know that they would rather have won than been runners up.

Maybe. The main reason for this is probably because Gordon is a solid and reliable part of Howe’s current set-up at Newcastle. But I dont really understand how useful that line of thinking is because it’s all hypothetical. We have no way of knowing if that would improve England’s performance or results.

Yes, but France and Germany were in the same half of the draw as Spain and both lost to them. We didn't have to play Spain until the final. It's undeniable that England as it turned out were in the easier part of the draw.

That's a terrible attitude. Sometimes you just have to accept that someone else was better than you on the day. With good grace.

I absolutely agree. That’s exactly what I mean by the variables to think about, as that’s one of them.

I see where you’re coming from, but also think that applying that logic to sport and life is quite a miserable way to live, tbh. It also completely goes against the spirit of sportsmanship, where one of the main lessons - despite often being bloody hard to live by - is how to lose well.

Exactly! Imagine if all the kids came back from sports days dumping their 'meaningless' silver medals in the bin! What sort of sporting adults would they end up as with that attitude?

I know you’re trying to say that the draw was kind to England, and it was, but this still sounds so dismissive. I think variables comes into this too. The teams looked easy to play on paper, but not so much in reality - they were not easy to play against. I hope you watched the actual games against those teams, because that would have shown how hard they were to play against.

Yes, I did.

It's not just a mumsnet view that second place is great. It's across the UK, we love a loser and that's why we lose.

Did you think the other teams were hard to play against? Regardless of the fact they might have been the easiest draw, they were still hard to play against.

That’s not ‘why’ we lose 🙄🙄 come on, Shoxfordian. No one sets out to lose.

Its definitely part of the psychology of it, we like an underdog, and we still say we're proud of footballers even when they don't win - other countries don't celebrate losers like we do

That's a really terrible attitude fgs. Look at the footage of Ireland coming home from Italia 90, we celebrated 'losers' in a big way. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. I suppose we didn't feel entitled to a trophy?

England only played when they were a goal down! When they were level they backed off. A team of cowards managed by one.

The English team was extremely, extremely lucky to get so far. They had a very easy draw and still barely made it. I watched all the games and it wasn't that the other teams were so great (until Spain): it was that England was frankly pretty bad.

I think English supporters should be very happy with this result, which is above and beyond the quality of the team's game. Runner-up is still pretty great. When the years pass what will remain written down is that the team played the final; nobody will remember the poor play. No reason to be upset!

If they'd won the tournament it would have been a robbery

It's not just my attitude, it's across the country - we celebrate losing and we're giving out prizes for doing our best and we're just happy to be there- I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad attitude but it's why we don't consistently win

When the Olympics starts then you'll see it there too, a runner will come fourth or fifth and just say they're happy they beat their personal best 🙄 - it's the winner's personal best they need to beat not their own

Seriously, it's a really terrible attitude. The only thing you can do is your best like. It's as simple as that. There's no point worrying about other people's PBs. You can only do your best. Whether that merits a win depends on the competition.

And why do you expect to consistently win? You're not owed these medals/ trophies.

I think we’re very good at supporting and consoling people when they lose/don’t win, but that doesn’t mean we’ve created an incentive for teams to lose.

That’s complete rubbish and actually really disrespectful.

I can assure you that every single player on that pitch last night - the English and Spanish players - and both managers were all desperate to win. They wouldn’t have got to that stage if they weren’t.

What we saw on that pitch last night - and what we’re now all judging those players on - is 0.00001% of what they’re capable of and what they’ve been through to reach that stage.

All of them have played football since they were young children - probably about five or six, maybe even earlier - and they must have started competing at progressively higher levels not long after that. That means they have all been playing high level sport for anything between ten and twenty years. Can you imagine all the sacrifices they and their families and friends have all made to make that possible?

Let’s also not forget that there can only be one winner. And England still came second.

And you then dare to come out with this idea that they are playing to lose??

if you love them so much the why did the team not turn up for the first 6 games. just passed it about, no attack in them at all

I agree in a way with your first sentence. I absolutely disagree with your last sentence. They’re not cowards ffs.

I don’t know because I didn’t manage them! Are you seriously even trying to go down this route. I’m pretty astonished that, for many people on this thread, winning is the be all and end al. And if someone doesn’t win, you’re quite happy to attack and insult them. I hope you don’t have this sort of attitude with your families at home. If you do, I really feel for your kids. And I’m being absolutely serious.