"Prime Minister Keir Starmer recommits to £3 billion a year of military support for Ukraine until 2030/31 and for as long as needed"

[changefromhr]

That's a huge amount of money for a war that's not going to end anytime soon.
3 BILLION a year!
3 x 1 thousand millions!
Where is this money going to come from? This is in addition to almost £12.5bn in military, humanitarian and economic support already given for Ukraine since Russia’s illegal and miscalculated full scale invasion in February 2022.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-stand-with-ukraine-for-as-long-as-it-takes-pm-to-tell-nato

It is indeed. Not least because of the way in which residents of said regions have been treated since being occupied by Russia. Russian speakers certainly haven't been spared, and it's a gross overgeneralisation to describe even the Donbass as a pro Russian region. The picture is more mixed.

We spent £4.7bn on Ukraine in the 2 years to Feb 2024, and the outgoing government's budget for Ukraine was £2.5bn for 24/25, which was always likely to increase.

Do people not understand the impact of not spending this money?

This. Look at what happened in the months before ww2 started.

It's not about that they including my next door neighbour is being vilified and told they are a drain on society and at fault for the country being on its knees but there's aid going all over the world 🌎 gaza/Ukraine/Africa ( there will be more )

Who's telling them that? The outgoing government, not this one.

How will spending money meant for our defence on yet more benefits change that?

@Kovus ,

‘£3bn is about 30 hours of UK tax revenue. That ignores local taxes - council tax and business rates. ‘

But that is close to 4 working days’ taxes to support Ukraine. Not sure it is quite that much, though. The problem is that 3 bio isn’t that much but would make some difference to schools or the NHS

‘Ukraine will only lose this war if the West withdraws its support. If the West withdraws its support, we confirm that fighting to keep democracy is not worthwhile. Then, we lose everything. ‘

But the UK is not The West. Compared to the U.S these days, we are insignificant, especially militarily. This attitude strikes me as harking back to WW2 and the era of empire when we were a Great Power and could shape the world.

Why do we need to pay more in percentage terms than the countries that actually border Ukraine? What is so exceptional about the UK?

‘For those who need to, wake up and smell the coffee. China now has troops in Belarus. China, Russia, NK and Iran will work together to test the West’s resolve over the next three years, all the while strategically building their forces to threaten the West. The US may have to fight on two continents simultaneously, but may choose not to. ‘

I might say the same to you regarding coffee. We are now a small country globally who could easily be overtaken by Poland in GDP per capita by 2030. We have broken services and people dying in A&E.

And as for the new ‘Axis of Evil’, there is one significant power there, China. If it weren’t for nukes, Russia would be irrelevant. If we boxed clever, in quarter of a century Russia could be our ally, greatly enhancing Europe as a Power to confront China (plus Iran and N Korea). Putin won’t be here forever and Russia wanted to join NATO in the 90s (we preferred to send Goldmans in and help create the oligarchs).

I actually agree that Europe needs to rearm, but that starts with Germany. We are already more than pulling our weight.

It's not our defence and I'm not saying spend more it's just very sad to see the constant pointing of finger's towards the disabled. And hearing first hand how upsetting and worrying it for them without acknowledgement of actually it isn't just this draining the economy aid is putting a dent in it also

Isn't that one of the reasons we've just had a change of government?

Of course we do. But, equally, do you not understand the impact of NOT spending this money on the NHS? People need to look at the bigger picture...

Ita absolutely for our defence. As I already stated, this is a proxy war for NATO with the deaths of many Ukrainian people instead of Brits, Americans, Germans, Poles...

This £3bn is a drop in the ocean. We'll be at war soon enough - see how much money that costs and how many dead people it results in.

Tell me, what is the impact of not giving the NHS an extra £3bn pa?

We currently spend £2.5bn per day on the NHS, an extra £3bn would make no difference at all. The NHS needs much more than money.

War in Europe will hurt the NHS far more than this money would help it.

Why THIS specific money? Which was already budgeted for this use?

And as for the new ‘Axis of Evil’, there is one significant power there, China. If it weren’t for nukes, Russia would be irrelevant. If we boxed clever, in quarter of a century Russia could be our ally, greatly enhancing Europe as a Power to confront China (plus Iran and N Korea). Putin won’t be here forever and Russia wanted to join NATO in the 90s (we preferred to send Goldmans in and help create the oligarchs).

And if my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle.

Russia have got nukes and the 90s have been and gone. We're stuck with both of those things. There's no reason to think Putin is likely to be replaced by someone more amenable to the West, alas.

It is our defence. Do you understand the ramifications for the UK if Ukraine loses?

3bn would make no difference to the NHS

You're joking right!? 🤦‍♀️

I've no reason to believe the uk are next... this wasn't my point tbh my point was simply why isn't it being acknowledged that the public purse isn't just being stretched by the disabled rightly or wrongly much of it goes on aid/flowers on roundabouts/Christmas lights/crap/much other shit but it's being rammed down out throats that it's the disabled draining the tax payer.

Nope. The annual budget for 2022-2023 was £181 billion.

£3bn would be an additional 1.66%.

Perspective is key.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/publications/business-plan/our-2022-23-business-plan/our-funding/

Well it funds 1.2 days of the current service. What difference would it make?

It's irrelevant to this discussion anyway. We're not spending this money to be nice, we're spending it to avoid a Russian attack on a NATO country and all out war. I wonder what that would cost?

The previous government knew that and this one is continuing what they pledged.

If any NATO country is next, the UK are next.

I was talking about the vilified outlook on the disabled but yeah OK lol

Fortunately, the major political parties were all in agreement about aid to Ukraine, so anyone thinking that this would reduce with a change of government had not done their research.

Yes, I was referring to PP's complaint re government attitudes to people with disabilities.

But that is close to 4 working days’ taxes to support Ukraine.
You run into problems if using 'working days'. The economy works 24/7. If you think of £bn as a percentage it is 0.27% of all tax revenue. I would also add we should not think of defence of our democracy, our values and our livelihoods, even our lives, as a 'budget'. It should be whatever is needed. Some of it comes around again - BAe, Babcock, Chemring etc.

But the UK is not The West. Compared to the U.S these days, we are insignificant, especially militarily. This attitude strikes me as harking back to WW2 and the era of empire when we were a Great Power and could shape the world.
We need to spend enough to defend ourselves in conjunction with our European neighbours - it needs to be done strategically. We are insignificant due to cuts that with hindsight should not have happened. I don't think anyone in the UK or Europe has ambitions to go back to the 18th and 19th Centuries. For us the world is a different place now.

Why do we need to pay more in percentage terms than the countries that actually border Ukraine? What is so exceptional about the UK?
We need to invest what is necessary. It may be more or less. We need to recognise also the geophysical shape of our continents. If Poland is overrun by a coalition of forces from Russia, China, Iran and NK et al, the beaches of France are within reach.

I might say the same to you regarding coffee. We are now a small country globally who could easily be overtaken by Poland in GDP per capita by 2030. We have broken services and people dying in A&E.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Perhaps we need to do both things, encompassing for example, decent living accommodation and support for serving soldiers and their families to ensuring people get medical treatment when they need it how they need it. We need to think about strategic priorities not just operational ones. Starmer has a mountain to climb.
By the way - you may want to revisit your calculations. Poland would need 28% compound annual economic growth to exceed the UK's by 2030 - and that assumes our economy is flat.

And as for the new ‘Axis of Evil’, there is one significant power there, China. If it weren’t for nukes, Russia would be irrelevant. If we boxed clever, in quarter of a century Russia could be our ally, greatly enhancing Europe as a Power to confront China (plus Iran and N Korea). Putin won’t be here forever and Russia wanted to join NATO in the 90s (we preferred to send Goldmans in and help create the oligarchs).
I could not agree more. Unfortunately, the West got it wrong and Russia spewed out a dangerous brutal bully. We have to defeat the bully then try to make peace (a lesson from school). The West never really gives Russia et al credit for its part in WW2 (not taught in schools).

I actually agree that Europe needs to rearm, but that starts with Germany. We are already more than pulling our weight.
I agree that Germany has much to atone for Russian appeasement. Trump was right on that. I suspect Germany is now doing much behind the scenes we do not know.

Actually, anyone thinking that 3bn would make the slightest difference to the NHS needs to look at the bigger picture. Pumping money into a broken system will not solve the issues the NHS has. Better administration would.