To wonder why it's so controversial to talk about white behaviour throughout history?

[BeachParty]

It's an interesting discussion to have, and makes you think.
Why do so many immediately go into "how dare you!" mode or "why are you being racist towards white people?!"
Instead of actually listening to what people are saying? History is whitewashed in this country, we usually learn it from a "hero" viewpoint.

It’s ironic that you want a discussion about history when you are using the word England when you seem to mean Britain.

There's no such thing as white history or black history. These terms are patently ridiculous. We don't say "brown history", do we? The terms are too broad, catching a huge range of cultures and nations. There is however the history of race and racialism, which is important to study.

OP, as I said in the other thread, schools/colleges have taught students about the good and bad of history for decades. I certainly learnt about some of the terrible things the UK did in the name of colonialism, the concentration camps we set up in S. Africa etc etc when I did O Level and A level history.
My son recently did A level history and was similarly taught both the good and bad. No one was was painted as a hero.

You either didn't pay enough attention in school or just enjoy speaking nonsense to get a response.

No, I don't think I've said Britain at all in my posts?
I said I'm referring to white English.
I'm well aware the United Kingdom is made up of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

You either didn't pay enough attention in school or just enjoy speaking nonsense to get a response

🤔

Yes you can go back that far to other white privileged men. Even the title you have given their land “the new world” is problematic ….people already lived there! It was new to the Europeans who wished to colonise it because the indigenous people were wasteful and uncivilised. Read any primary source of how the indigenous people were described.

I certainly learnt about some of the terrible things the UK did in the name of colonialism

How old were you then just out of curiosity?
Old Western films depict "history" too and paint the "white man" favourably.

Well, the Chinese invented gun powder but they used those for pleasure - fireworks. They also invented compass.

Why don’t we replace the phrase ‘white behaviour’ with ‘colonialism’ - would that help?

It unfortunately goes hand in hand with white supremacy, you can ‘what about’ all you like and it says without going that white people aren’t the only aggressors throughout history, but we’re talking sustained, deliberate invasion, repeated genocides in some places and complete displacements of a WHOLE people to steal their resources - and yes this was based on white supremacy. I’m talking modern history not the bloody Roman Empire because these more recent atrocities more clearly provide the fabric to today’s society.

Examples:
-USA/Canada (was Native American, almost wiped out and now predominantly white European… not to mention the slavery)
-Brazil/Argentina/Uruguay etc (now vastly European)
-South Africa (now at least 20% European cos, you know, apartheid)
-Almost all of the Caribbean (now populated by black Africans brought over for slavery, lots of Indian indentured servants for the British Empire too)
-Australia (now predominantly white, natives almost wiped out and forcibly displaced)
-Israel (argue with your mother.)
—The Congo (10 million killed by King Leopold in the 1800s for the rubber trade, including systematic removal of limbs from men, women and children as punishment)

I’m sure there’s more I’ve missed. FYI no one is asking white people to apologise, that’s just being intentionally dense.

I wonder how many people know that every single British tax payer was contributing to paying off the debt of the UK for making up the slave owners losses until 2015?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/17/government-finished-paying-uks-slavery-debt-2015/

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Yeah but the "white" argument doesn't really stand up when it was colonial English people who took over Scotland, Ireland and Wales too.... the inhabitants of whom are all "white". Being English or white just has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Even the title you have given their land “the new world” is problematic ….people already lived there!

Yes this - it was their home was my point.
The New World.
Who, ours? We basically ran them out of there (to put it politely) it's uncomfortable which is why people automatically maybe go defensive.
(Not saying we should all self flagellate for evermore before anyone says, just maybe not deny "white behaviour" is a thing.

When I took my O levels I was 16 and when I took my A levels I was 18 - the usual ages people are when they take those exams in the UK.
My son took his A levels 2 years ago.
Some of those old westerns you mention were made when my parents were children AND were made in the US so really you'd have to take it up with Hollywood.

Old western cowboy films were around when my 75 year old mum was little. They were old and dated 40 years ago.

Films, works of fiction can hardly be considered history lessons....

Have to say I've never once heard colonialism talked about in a positive light and rightly so.

When I took my O levels I was 16 and when I took my A levels I was 18 - the usual ages people are when they take those exams in the UK

Yes, exactly, 16 onwards! You can drop history around the age of 12/13 in the UK (England you can anyway) when you're in year 8 and choose your options and decide you don't want to do history.
It's not in a lot of depth before then. Or at least it never used to be, if that's changed for today's youth then I'm glad.

Films, works of fiction can hardly be considered history lessons

No, but people can and do form opinions on them
Positive /negative representation and all that

@BeachParty just maybe not deny "white behaviour" is a thing.

You still have not provided your definition of white behavior, I'm still waiting to find out exactly what white behavior is as a homogeneous group of people with pale skin.

The main reason for colonisation was based on white superiority. We are sweeping the reality under the carpet by saying “but the Irish were persecuted too”. Yes they were. However, the main reason for the colonisation of places like India, North America, Australia, parts of Africa, places in the Caribbean was white superiority. The indigenous people were sub-humans to the colonists (the white British) and the land needed to be civilised. This narrative of the British saviour has been taught in schools until the last 5-8 years.

The main reason for colonisation was trade. Europeans traded with other nations and then competed with each other to dominated trade. There were several different East India companies.

The notion of white superiority came along later, mainly as justification for the slave trade.

Africa was colonised much later than India or the Americas. Again, it was partly driven by European countries competing with each other to be powerful.

I think that countries who contributed to slavery should face their past, acknowledge it, apologise and learn from it.

It is desperately sad how inhumane the human race has been.

However, it's far from exclusive to white people:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

"The Arab slave trade.... rough estimates place the number of Africans enslaved in the twelve centuries prior to the 20th century at between six million to ten million."

Different groups at different times in history have enslaved others and thought it acceptable, fortunately most groups know better now.

Turning it into a solely black/white issue creates arbitrary division.

You do know that there is no such generic group as 'the whites' to talk about?

I’m white, I’m British. I know how the empire behaved. But that’s not me, I don’t feel guilty in any sense. I live my life as a good world citizen.

Please check your facts before sounding off about school history. They don’t drop it “practically as soon as entering high school” - children have three years of history at high school and have to study it up to the age of 13/14. It’s not a compulsory gcse which I agree is a shame but there are so many other options which also need time. 40% of kids take it for gcse.

https://www.history.org.uk/higher-ed/resource/10557/school-history-faqs

https://www.history.org.uk/secondary/resource/9620/how-diverse-is-your-history-curriculum

There have been lots of steps to increase diversity of the curriculum options and it is always changing. But I remember plenty of nuance and examination back in the early 90’s.

I see your point. I'm in my 40's and believe me when I tell you that colonial England is a shame we will bear forever more, but I'm honestly sick of it being a "white privaliged people issue".

The reality is, colonial Britain took over just about everything it touched! Skin colour didn't matter. Greedy people wanted to use human lives as a commodity to trade and those people gained power. It's happened in numerous places since by people who were not white.

I'm not going to sit back anymore and let "white people" get trashed for the sins of the forefathers, anymore than I would sit back and let people of colour be trashed. Enough is enough, you can already see what direction this is taking with what's happening in UK politics. The rise of Nigel barrage. None of us want that.

I've patched this together, I think. The OP isn't talking about all white people (because that would be silly), she's talking about rich white English colonisers.

I think she wants to know why the British don't learn more about the negative aspects of our colonial history.