To wonder why it's so controversial to talk about white behaviour throughout history?

[BeachParty]

It's an interesting discussion to have, and makes you think.
Why do so many immediately go into "how dare you!" mode or "why are you being racist towards white people?!"
Instead of actually listening to what people are saying? History is whitewashed in this country, we usually learn it from a "hero" viewpoint.

Really I don't think we should be using terms like "white" and "English" to describe "some not all" people then... its not a fitting description if they are not all like that is it....

The entire human race needs to stop stereotyping. Every single person is an individual and some develop ideals which are not kind, not nice and at times down right evil. What we need to do is label those ideals and use those and not whole population stereotypes to describe these people because if you don't you draw all those innocent people into that label until ultimately they live upto your label because they may aswell if they can't escape it.

Wow, I’ve never seen so many backs up. OP the reactions to your post just from the first page, tells you everything.

a great example of white washing history in my opinion is King Leopold and what he did in the Congo. The facts are all there and readily available, I think it’s shocking it’s not taught in schools, especially how other countries including UK benefitted from it.

There are other historical figures who rightfully have awful reputations but I almost feel as though his gets glossed over. Quite possibly one of the worst people to ever have existed in modern history.

My worry is when you keep telling someone they are a certain way eventually they embrace the label... hence the swing to the right we are currently seeing in this country.

That is exactly my fears when people are trying to place the blame for their current situation on 'white' people of today. During the 70's, 80's and into the 90's we were a racist place imo. This has undoubtebly created some communities with negative opinions of some of the UK population. But dividing themselves into echo chambers where pointing out the UK today is not like that is shouted down, will only eventually create another us and them situation.

We have to get over ourselves, stop taking everything about white people personally and actually listen.

I’m very willing to do so. But despite repeated requests to the OP to define their terms, eg, “white behaviour” she has thus far declined to do so.

It is very difficult to engage in honest discussion with someone who refuses to take this basic step, which is probably the reason OP is being accused of goadiness and intellectual dishonesty.

Sooo did they do it because they were white? Or because they were a bad person? Are we responsible for the actions of a person dead hundreds of years? It's racist like it or not and I actually feel it needs to be made just as illegal as it is do something like this to a person of colour.

All this white shaming is doing extensive damage to this country we will lucky if we escape a right wing, racist government at the next election and reading things like this shows me why it's happening.

In my experience it really doesn't. My (admittedly) state school spent Years 7-9 covering World War history- which centred - quite understandably - on English British history. Irish and Commonwealth history was ignored and anything covering the impact of decisions made in the mid twentieth century that still have an impact on the world today was not covered. Private educated people I've met of all ages have also demonstrated a lack of knowledge of and the importance of the Comnonwealth to Britain in this current day. Which is quite shocking if you think about how impactful the last few centuries have been.

I think it's obvious
People who are uncomfortable and defensive are uneducated and do not understand the context and meaning behind what you are saying. There is no point in trying to make them understand. They laugh at you out of their ignorance which, ironically, they are ignorant about.

I work in academia and people are overtly apologetic and lots of talk about the 'decolonisation' of many aspects of life.

I think some later posters are missing the context of this thread which is TAAT which was racist. This comes on the back of that, and explains a fair bit of the reception.

I too am interested in “white behaviour” because like “champagne socialist” it does not seem to be defined. And day one of studying history is usually “define your terms”.

"Wow, I’ve never seen so many backs up. OP the reactions to your post just from the first page, tells you everything."

Quick question did you actually read TAAT. I take it not by the fact you have only just replied to this thread.

So I would say that you claiming the first page tells you everything, is complete and utter rubbish. Unless you actually read TAAT that was removed you would not understand why half the initial posts were posted 🙄

So therefore I will take everything else you said as unsubstantiated rubbish.

Really I don't think we should be using terms like "white" and "English" to describe "some not all" people then... its not a fitting description if they are not all like that is it....

Sorry, not sure what you mean by that?
I was just pointing out that I'm referring to white English people and their behaviour/attitude towards others
Then said "Some! Not all." To clarify I do not mean all. Before I got accused of stereotyping.
Of course not all are like that.
There is such a thing as a white English mindset mentality though and I really don't know why that's so controversial to say! (Genuinely, not being goady)

That's what I think too, shaming a person will never make for a better rounded society. People emphasising their differences only creates divisions when in reality most share a common culture today.

However I do agree with PPs on more education. I have found British people really clueless about their own territories even today which is inexcusable really. I think sometimes it's this ignorance that creates friction, can you imagine how insulting it is to move to UK from somewhere with a difficult history of colonisation and meet people who never heard of you. Or who believe you are still part of their colony? Education without judgement, that's the answer IMO.

Edited to add education without using terms like 'white' or 'black'.

Sorry, where did I suggest I was "proud of that heritage"?

Yes, this! The world today is built on the world of yesterday, and it has been deliberately built to favour the construct of “whiteness” (which, by the way, didn’t really even exist until relatively recent history).

None of this is a personal attack, it’s just factual. People’s desire to jump to the defence of this reality shows just how effective the construct is.

The obvious question then is, whose interests does the system serve?

I don't know. I think for several centuries white people had the means to colonise other countries and enslave people. They were therefore in a position of power for a long time. White people were particularly successful at building empires.
As a naive teenager I used to think white people = bad, black people =good. However the more I learn about history the more I see that people of all colours and races have opressed and enslaved others. OP - perhaps you're not aware that black and Asian people have also enslaved others. There have been some dreadful atrocities perpetrated by non-Whites.
I also don't think we (the British) shy away from the shameful things we did in the past. I know quite a lot about Britain's wrongdoings from school, from British TV documentaries and books, from news articles. It's not hidden - these things from our past are openly examined and discussed.
Some people will always be defensive if you start making statements about "white people" but most people I know acknowledge our history - the good and the bad.

OP, I agree with you and I think this post has largely proved your point. "What about" "white people aren't the only ones xyz".
We learn the version of our history that is most palatable, and people won't tolerate hearing anything less positive.
People get defensive because they can't be bothered to take the time to learn. It's far easier for them to deflect.

Except to the Welsh.

It's hard to have a discussion where 1. You haven't actually said what "white behaviour" is, and 2. You haven't explained why "white behaviour" is in a different category to "black behaviour" or "Asian behaviour", other that just saying it's obviously different.

Maybe if you could be clear about what you actually mean people might be able to have a discussion about it.

And now you're reducing it to just white English? I honestly haven't got a clue what you're on about, I'm not pretending not to understand.

(As an aside, just noticed the poll says 75 % - 26% 😕😂)
How does that work then lol, MN, can you even Maths.... 😁

I’m white and honestly find it pathetic how so many white people go into defensive mode when talking about structural racism. It’s like the NAMALT brigade when you’re talking about patriarchy.

For fuck sake, people, nobody is saying YOU are a blue eyed devil responsible for all mankind’s evil. But if you can’t constructively critique these things, how can things ever change for the better?

I'd like to know what part is taught in a balanced way.

My DC older teenagers one is at uni one y10 both felt ostracised by the history teaching due to their German/ Austrian heritage....

A great many people do acknowledge the good and bad, absolutely true

however, many don’t and articles like this one shed a worrying light on what that means

amp.theguardian.com/books/article/2024/jun/08/imperial-nostalgia-has-become-so-extreme-sathnam-sanghera-on-the-conflict-surrounding-colonial-history

Fellow state school attendee. Although a fair length of time since I was at School, but from memory I think we covered little bits on the Romans, WW1/2, Industrial Revolution, Boudicea and the Commonwealth.

I suspect WW1 and WW2 get so much coverage in education is that the holocaust is a complusory part of state education, and obviously ties into the wars.

Again from memory, more recent commonwealth and the effects it was having on current times was taught as modern studies.

White English wouldn’t even cover some people who did very well out of colonialism and came from these islands. People talk about ignorance but they too are ignorant of who made money. It was not just a lot of white English people. It would not have worked if it was.

It’s like the NAMALT brigade when you’re talking about patriarchy

Exactly this.
Which is why I felt the need to go Not all! in some of my previous posts
NAWPALT (not all white people are like that)
Should go without saying, but some people are taking it so personally!

Why does "white behavior" have to narrowed down to a single descriptor? The same discussion can be had which ever particular type of "white" you fancy at that moment.
We have "black history month" - do we have to pick in advance which black people we want it to be about this time?