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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why it's so controversial to talk about white behaviour throughout history?

667 replies

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 16:13

It's an interesting discussion to have, and makes you think.
Why do so many immediately go into "how dare you!" mode or "why are you being racist towards white people?!"
Instead of actually listening to what people are saying? History is whitewashed in this country, we usually learn it from a "hero" viewpoint.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
FrippEnos · 11/07/2024 06:41

Its controversial because what you are calling "white behaviour" isn't just "white behaviour". But you are just calling that fact "whataboutery"

And to call it that just helps the racial divide.

DownNative · 11/07/2024 07:02

BarryCantSwim · 10/07/2024 23:18

This had been discussed a lot on MN OP.

Of course it’s complex and personally think when we talk about white oppressors historically, we’re talking about a specific class of people - upper/ruling class as was. Mix of pillaging resources which has gone on since time
began, and a belief their belief was ‘right’ and somehow superior. Add in more technology and economic advantage and it was abused for sure.

Even within ‘white’ history and given our special relationship with Ireland, we don’t describe the Irish Famine as genocide by starvation - which is what it was.

There’s a long way to go for all of this.

No, the Irish Famine wasn't genocide by any means whatsoever. Even reputable historians agree it wasn't, including Irish ones.

"Doyle Expounds Official Famine Line

It has taken a Government Minister, Ms Avril Doyle, to put Irish-Americans straight about the Great Famine"

  • Irish News headline and article on 14th December 1996

"The woefully inadequate response of the then British authorities and the misguided relief policies which they pursued are now well established in the professional literature of Famine studies. It was a rigidly doctrinaire and ideological administration, remote from the people whom it allegedly served and determined to pursue a programme of economic modernisation, even at the cost of thousands of people's lives.

However, it goes way beyond the boundaries of acceptable analysis to argue that there was a genocidal intent on the part of the British Government at the time and that the Irish Famine is therefore directly equivalent to the Holocaust. By using that argument, we are letting the British authorities off the hook. Their hands appear to have been clean but they certainly were not.

In my comments in America and elsewhere, I have made my position abundantly clear. The British response during the Famine was entirely inadequate, but the genocidal argument has no validity and this inaccuracy does a disservice both to the victims of the Holocaust or the Famine."

  • Minister Of State At The Department Of The Taoiseach, Mrs Avril Doyle speaking in the Irish Parliament on Thursday 19th December 1996

Avril Doyle was also the chair of the Republic of Ireland's National Famine Committee charged with organising the official commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the Great Famine.

"It is not good for continuing Anglo-Irish relations to term the famine as a deliberate act of genocide. What happened was more a case of appalling neglect and disinterest on the part of some of the reigning officialdom. Serious mistakes were made but there was no official genocide policy. It was really the manifestation of a laissez faire philosophy — let market forces reach their own level and, in the meantime, let the people die or try to survive, as inevitably they would. Certainly it was a philosophy that failed disastrously and for which we still pay."

  • David Andrews (TD representing the Constituency of Dún Laoghaire) speaking in the Irish Parliament on Thursday 19th December 1996.

"In the case of the Great Famine no reputable historian believes that the British state intended the destruction of the Irish people, and the Famine-Holocaust comparisons provide no support either. Yet one million died. Does intentionality matter?

It does matter, for at least three reasons. First, it directly determines the scale of the tragedy. It is easy to forget that had Germany not lost the war, many more Jews would have been killed, such was the strength of commitment to the Final Solution. By contrast, when the Irish economy recovered some strength at the end of the 1840s the crisis was largely, though not wholly over – to the evident relief, not only of people in Ireland but of British policy makers also.

But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.

These are not the actions of a Government or a state bent on genocide."

  • Liam Kennedy, emeritus professor of economic history at Queen's University, Belfast, Northern Ireland and author of "The Great Irish Famine and the Holocaust" on the QUB website

"The belief that the authorities in London did little to prevent the Irish from starving underpins the recurrent claims of genocide from some quarters in Ireland and particularly Irish-America. There is a sense in which England "slept". However, two points need emphasising here.

First is that any worthwhile definition of genocide includes murderous intent, and it must be said that not even the most bigoted and racist commentators of the day sought the extermination of the Irish. Certainly, stereotypical images of feckless peasants and lazy landlords abounded. They underpinned an interpretation of the Famine as a divine solution to an otherwise intractable problem of overpopulation, and justified tough policies. If policy failure resulted in deaths, then (as in the Netherlands in the same years and in India and elsewhere later) they were largely the by-product of a dogmatic version of political economy, not the deliberate outcome of anti-Irish racism. In the late 1840s, Whitehall policy makers were no less dogmatic toward Irish famine victims.....Yet even the toughest of them hoped for better times for Ireland and, however perversely, considered the harshest measures prescribed as a form of communal medicine. A charge of doctrinaire neglect is easier to sustain than one of genocide.

Second, modern accusations of genocide underestimate, or overlook altogether, the enormous challenge facing relief agencies, both central and local, public and private, at the time."

  • Cormac Ó Gráda, Irish economic historian and professor emeritus of economics at University College Dublin as well as author of Black '47 and Beyond: The Great Irish Famine in History, Economy, and Memory

"One word, however, is not open to our usage.....This is the term "holocaust". When you see it, you know you are encountering famine-porn. It is inevitably part of a presentation that is historically unbalanced and, like other kinds of pornography, is distinguished by a covert (and sometimes overt) appeal to misanthropy and almost always an incitement to hatred."

  • Historian and author of twenty-four books on Ireland, Professor Donald H. Akenson speaking 150th Famine commemorations at the Ulster-American Folk Park in Omagh, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland in September 1995

Akenson is considered to be the "world's foremost authority on the Irish Diaspora." He lectures at Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada.

"In 1944 the Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin coined a new word, genocide, to describe what was happening. Four years later the UN adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Since then the term has been applied to other situations, sometimes retrospectively, for example to Armenia in 1915–18 and our own Potato Famine. But how appropriate is this? The key word in the Convention is ‘intent’. I’ll leave readers to argue whether this has been established in the Armenian case (see Letters), but as I listened to our guide, Vitold, relate the grim details of the Nazis’ ‘Final Solution’, I couldn’t help but conclude that, notwithstanding British culpability for the millions of victims of the Famine in Ireland, genocide it was not."

  • Editor of History Ireland in an Editorial in Issue 5 September/October 2015, Volume 23

"Dr Williams, therefore, sees the Famine as “Britain’s Great Failure” – a failure of public policy. It was not genocide, but equally it was not simply the result of a natural disaster.

Moreover, he emphasises that it was the Irish poor – not the “Irish people” – who were “starved and driven out”. For the Irish upper and middle classes, Catholic as well as Protestant, life during the Famine went on pretty much as before. The framing of the Famine in nationalist terms by John Mitchel and others – to quote Williams, “as England against Ireland, the landlords against the people and, by implication at least, Protestants against Catholics” – is wholly misleading, though sadly it remains part of our popular memory and still provokes anti-British sentiment both in Ireland and among the descendants overseas of those “driven out”."

Review of Ireland’s Great Famine, Britain’s Great Failure by William H. A. Williams on the Irish Catholic website

www.irishcatholic.com/the-irish-famine-natural-disaster-or-genocide/

Gilbertwasawuss · 11/07/2024 07:13

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 16:30

I was hoping for a discussion about stuff like how why can't we discuss how people who are white have oppressed/oppress people who are black in the past (an example of white behaviour someone asked for) but if people cant even understand that "black and white behaviour" just isn't comparable it seemed rather fruitless.
Hence the bloody hell response.

Hahahahahahahaha

Are you living under a rock?

Genuinly where do you live?
Because this is being discussed ad nauseam everywhere I look.

Pop onto Tiktok and you'll have a blast.

People like you enjoy throwing questions like this out there, without actually wanting a genuine discussion.
You want to be able to point fingers to people.

Goady and frankly just annoying.

Kinshipug · 11/07/2024 08:30

Bullpuckey · 10/07/2024 23:16

Are upu about to argue that our interventions I'm Afghanistan were for the best

No, believe it or not, I’m content with letting a country live how they like. But if you want to be a rich, prosperous education, then ‘indigenous ways of knowing’ won’t cut it. You’re gonna have to have Western education. Cope.

There was no "religious brainwashing" in many countries until we imported Christianity

All of the lands colonised by Arab invaders would have used religious education (if they had anything at all), eg madrasas.

The entire curriculum is Christian centric in a great many places

And what makes Western education ‘Christian centric’? Of course, if you learn English, you must learn some elements of Christianity to understand it fully, just like you need to understand basics of Chinese religion like Taoism and Kongzi to really understand Chinese idioms.

I didn't say "western education is Christian centric". I said the curriculum we exported to the colonies is. And you have just confirmed my point haven't you - it is not secular as you first stated.
Ps, you're more likely to get a response if quote.

londonmummy1966 · 11/07/2024 09:26

Lisbeth50 · 10/07/2024 23:12

The Egyptians provides a great contrast with British history at the same time. It was the Stone Age but the Egyptians had an incredibly complex civilisation. Britain was in no way as advanced.

I agree but that isn't how its presented in most primary schools I've seen - its all about making paper models of pyramids, doing funny walks and singing songs from Joseph about Pharoah being a powerful man.....

The Maya was more models of pyramids and trips to a chocolate museum.

TempestTost · 11/07/2024 10:36

I don't quite understand this idea that we've endlessly imposed religious education on people. There really is no such thing as a secular education, all education reflects worldview. If we are telling people no they really ought to be "secular" that's just a different attempt at influence.

In any case, much of Africa is deeply Christian, and there are many other places in the world world where it is the indigenous peoples who are Christian and Europeans who are embarrassed by religion. There are Christians throughout the Middle East, Africa, and China who are struggling to hold on to their beliefs under awful persecution. It's just as, or more common, now to see missionaries coming from those places to the West.

TempestTost · 11/07/2024 10:43

londonmummy1966 · 11/07/2024 09:26

I agree but that isn't how its presented in most primary schools I've seen - its all about making paper models of pyramids, doing funny walks and singing songs from Joseph about Pharoah being a powerful man.....

The Maya was more models of pyramids and trips to a chocolate museum.

This is partly because children don't really learn sophisticated history.

You can teach children quite good history with stories, just fairly straightforward stories about people and places. Probably the best example I can think of is Our Island Story. It's now very old fashioned, because no one writes like that any more, but it actually contained a really solid, excellent narrative history of England, that would put any child in a very good position for more serious study of history in the teen years when analytical capacity developed more fully.

Unfortunately, schools in general don't ask kids to do much serious reading now, or even listen to long narratives. These are, supposedly, passe. so they don't get as much as they could.

But no one should expect children to do adult history that is really self-conscious about process and historiography. At best it ends up indoctrinating them to think a certain way about historical interpretation. Some adults want to push kids to higher order thinking before they are ready, and it usually has the effect of undermining higher order thinking later.

Matronic6 · 11/07/2024 13:07

Bullpuckey · 10/07/2024 16:06

We actually live in quite a diverse country. There are a range of ethnicities and cultures in the country and our classrooms

This is a recent phenomenon. And unlike American blacks, did not these families choose to be part of British culture? They should learn and respect the culture that they have chosen to live in.

These children deserve to see themselves in the syllabus and their learning

Why?

And all children benefit from hearing a range of voices and perspectives

Yes, this is nice but it should come from a foundation of English language and culture, no? Otherwise what is the point?

A country that invaded and colonised 1/4 of the planet, stole cultural artefacts and tried to instill their culture of course expects their culture to be respected. Ironic. I never said British culture shouldn't be respected btw. I said the curriculum should reflect the diversity of the country and classrooms.

Children deserve to see themselves in their leaning the same way adults deserve to see themselves in local and national government. With representation of different sexes, ethnicities and religions.

I never said the British perspective should be ignored, I said other perspectives need to be added to the narrative.

Bullpuckey · 11/07/2024 13:29

And you have just confirmed my point haven't you - it is not secular as you first stated

There is a difference between ‘God created the world’ and ‘let’s learn about evolutionary theory’ and ‘God destroyed the Sodomites’ and ‘lets explore the Christian theology behind Milton’

Bullpuckey · 11/07/2024 13:50

A country that invaded and colonised 1/4 of the planet, stole cultural artefacts and tried to instill their culture of course expects their culture to be respected

They should expect the people living within their borders to respect and learn about local heritage and culture.

I said the curriculum should reflect the diversity of the country and classrooms

It really shouldn’t. You left your country and culture freely. How dare you try to impose it on your host country. Keep it home.

Children deserve to see themselves in their leaning the same way adults deserve to see themselves in local and national government

No they don’t.

If you have an issue with British classrooms teaching from a British perspective, the problem is with you. If you do not wish to expose your children to such values, then … I am afraid you are in the wrong.

I am personally affected by this, not being British and wondering whether or not I should continue to have my child in a British school. But this is my issue, the schools need not address it

(Also it is insane you want to change the demographics of the native leadership when you have largely chose to go to Britain and live under British government. Like … how is this any different from colonialist thinking? Are you not dispossessing the white British? I guess you may see it as ‘vengeance’ for colonialism? The whole thing is just absurd)

I never said the British perspective should be ignored, I said other perspectives need to be added to the narrative

It would be okay to explore global modes of thought once the basics are set.

Totallymessed · 11/07/2024 14:04

Papyrophile · 10/07/2024 21:35

But Europe was central to history for 1000 years. History was made and happened in Europe. Not in Ethiopia or Indonesia. China turned its back on the world in the (IIRC) 14th century. (I can find a reference, if pressed). Europe, over 1500 years between the Roman Empire and the first World War, passed through the Renaissance, Reformation, wars of territory and religion, and in the English Civil War, the first battle to decide whether the people or the crown held supremacy. The people won in 1649, when the UK executed a king.

The Ottoman empire was hugely important, though.

Matronic6 · 11/07/2024 14:25

Bullpuckey · 11/07/2024 13:50

A country that invaded and colonised 1/4 of the planet, stole cultural artefacts and tried to instill their culture of course expects their culture to be respected

They should expect the people living within their borders to respect and learn about local heritage and culture.

I said the curriculum should reflect the diversity of the country and classrooms

It really shouldn’t. You left your country and culture freely. How dare you try to impose it on your host country. Keep it home.

Children deserve to see themselves in their leaning the same way adults deserve to see themselves in local and national government

No they don’t.

If you have an issue with British classrooms teaching from a British perspective, the problem is with you. If you do not wish to expose your children to such values, then … I am afraid you are in the wrong.

I am personally affected by this, not being British and wondering whether or not I should continue to have my child in a British school. But this is my issue, the schools need not address it

(Also it is insane you want to change the demographics of the native leadership when you have largely chose to go to Britain and live under British government. Like … how is this any different from colonialist thinking? Are you not dispossessing the white British? I guess you may see it as ‘vengeance’ for colonialism? The whole thing is just absurd)

I never said the British perspective should be ignored, I said other perspectives need to be added to the narrative

It would be okay to explore global modes of thought once the basics are set.

First of all, I am actually from the UK.

Second of all, the problem is actually not just with me. It is literally DFE priority is to achieve greater equality and diversity in education. They are actively aiming to recruit staff that reflect the diversity of the country. The national curriculum also requires the teaching of ethnic minority history including the consequences of the British Empire.

I was never expressing concern as a parent about what my child was being taught. I was explaining what schools are doing up and down the country because delivering a more broad and balanced curriculum is a key priority in education.

Bullpuckey · 11/07/2024 14:35

First of all, I am actually from the UK

I expect most posters to be from the UK tbh

Second of all, the problem is actually not just with me. It is literally DFE priority is to achieve greater equality and diversity in education

And I think it’s wrongheaded. Lots of education movements turn out to be counterproductive in the end.

They are actively aiming to recruit staff that reflect the diversity of the country

So the ‘diversity’ they want isn’t reflected in the teaching profession? And this is something they want to ‘fix’? Honestly isn’t England like, at least 80% white British? What is the issue? That there are minority enclaves with white British teachers? How is this a problem again?

The national curriculum also requires the teaching of ethnic minority history including the consequences of the British Empire

Well you do have to understand the consequences of the British Empire, yes. That is part of your history

Matronic6 · 11/07/2024 14:48

Bullpuckey · 11/07/2024 14:35

First of all, I am actually from the UK

I expect most posters to be from the UK tbh

Second of all, the problem is actually not just with me. It is literally DFE priority is to achieve greater equality and diversity in education

And I think it’s wrongheaded. Lots of education movements turn out to be counterproductive in the end.

They are actively aiming to recruit staff that reflect the diversity of the country

So the ‘diversity’ they want isn’t reflected in the teaching profession? And this is something they want to ‘fix’? Honestly isn’t England like, at least 80% white British? What is the issue? That there are minority enclaves with white British teachers? How is this a problem again?

The national curriculum also requires the teaching of ethnic minority history including the consequences of the British Empire

Well you do have to understand the consequences of the British Empire, yes. That is part of your history

You're welcome!

To wonder why it's so controversial to talk about white behaviour throughout history?
Papyrophile · 11/07/2024 17:03

Totallymessed · 11/07/2024 14:04

The Ottoman empire was hugely important, though.

Very true, the Byzantine civilisation and sphere dominated the eastern Mediterranean after the Greeks declined. A serious omission on my part. In fact, I think studying 20thC Turkish history, including Kemal Ataturk's creation of a secular Muslim state, would make a very interesting contrast to the history of Iran/Persia.

BarryCantSwim · 11/07/2024 17:30

@DownNative

I have no wish to engage with you further except to say I take offence at some of the selective quotes and narrow definition of what is ‘intended’ genocide.

It’s laughable to suggest the most advanced nation at that time was just a bit shit in its logistics and coordination, the consequence being millions of people died over multiple years as well as unbearable suffering for those who’ve survived.

I’m very happy to agree to disagree with you since we have such very different views on humanity.

TempestTost · 11/07/2024 17:41

Most kids start out learning their own history because it's on a scale that is teachable, and it is starting from something they know and which is all around them.

I was given a world history teaching text some years ago, for primary school aged kids. It was a nice enough book, organized chronologically, but actually almost impossible to use. It was too scatter shot, you would get a chapter about France, then maybe two on China, something on North American history. Nothing to tie the threads together.

But good students leaving education at 16 or 17 can reasonably expected to have a very good grounding of their national and perhaps regional history, and maybe a somewhat more superficial understanding of one or two other historical threads - maybe another nation, or colonial topics, or ancient history (or even prehistory), and some knowledge of generalized world history and maybe current events.

But without giving up the study of English, other languages, maths, the sciences, etc - you really aren't going to get more. Not without it being so shallow it's almost dangerous.

DownNative · 11/07/2024 17:48

BarryCantSwim · 11/07/2024 17:30

@DownNative

I have no wish to engage with you further except to say I take offence at some of the selective quotes and narrow definition of what is ‘intended’ genocide.

It’s laughable to suggest the most advanced nation at that time was just a bit shit in its logistics and coordination, the consequence being millions of people died over multiple years as well as unbearable suffering for those who’ve survived.

I’m very happy to agree to disagree with you since we have such very different views on humanity.

I'm sure you do not wish to engage, but understand that all opinions are not equal and the knowledge I quoted comes from the Irish Government, Irish TDs, Irish historians x2, American historian and so on.

Likewise, whatever you take offence at is irrelevant to me. All that's relevant is the facts as presented by the various historians et al I quoted.

It is not humanity we disagree on and there you sail perilously close to the Emotional Appeal Fallacy.

It is simply Irish history we're disagreeing on. Thankfully, no reputable professional historian agrees with you! 👍

Cheerio.....🤷‍♂️

turbonerd · 11/07/2024 18:43

Papyrophile · 10/07/2024 20:34

There's a lot of reading around the subject of empire, specifically the British Empire, for any one who is interested. I enjoyed Niall Ferguson's Empire. He's a Scot and an economic history prof at Harvard, who writes fluently and accessibly about the Empire. I think he's quite clear sighted about the good and the bad.

If you are in Brittany on holiday, I would recommend the Museum of the French East India Company in Lorient, which was the home port for the French East India fleet, if only to reassure yourselves that it really wasn't only England that has a colonial history.

And, as I posted last night, I firmly believe that most of the attraction for refugees and migrants is language, and English is the modern world language. It's a really easy language to get by in while you don't speak it fluently. For a final point, English civil law is the gold standard for equity and certainty, because it is based on 800 years of precedent. Magna Carta, habeus corpus are the foundation stones of legal equity and fair treatment.

Yes, the French Empire was also huge and they really did not let their colonies go quietly in the night after WW2 either.

The atrocities in Madagascar, the Vietnam war and so forth. We don’t hear much about it, but French documentary makers have made some harrowing films with real life footage for those who can stomach it.
It is the «Apocalypse» series, includes the world Wars too.

StarryIsabella · 11/07/2024 19:47

I graduated school a few years ago, am at uni now and all we ever learnt was how evil white countries where....

White privilege
Supremacy
Unconscious bias
Etc.....

What they don't teach you is most countries in Africa and Asia are just as bad.... But only white people are allowed to be vilified. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Papyrophile · 11/07/2024 20:17

@StarryIsabella , to accept a share of responsibility, from the 17th to 19th centuries, Europe developed the trump cards. Science and technology advances, tick. Applied science and technology, which means engineering skills, another tick. Ship building, mining, map making, the list is almost endless; then the industrialisation of agriculture (Jethro Tull, crop rotation) resulted in a mini population boom, to staff factories.

Capital formation started in Italy and the Netherlands, from the 14th century with risk sharing ventures common by the late 15th century, which funded the voyages of discovery. Insurance has its origins in a 16thC London coffee shop -- Lloyds, where merchants haggled and traded and did deals.

I grant you that it was a fortunate confluence of education, energy and enterprise... but it was not replicated anywhere else on the planet until the USA really started to motor in the late 19thC, and they built their commercial framework on the English-Norman system of Common Law.

History is fascinating... very many apologies if I have been boring.
Edited to remove a floating redundant "or".

ATenShun · 11/07/2024 20:41

Matronic6 · 11/07/2024 14:25

First of all, I am actually from the UK.

Second of all, the problem is actually not just with me. It is literally DFE priority is to achieve greater equality and diversity in education. They are actively aiming to recruit staff that reflect the diversity of the country. The national curriculum also requires the teaching of ethnic minority history including the consequences of the British Empire.

I was never expressing concern as a parent about what my child was being taught. I was explaining what schools are doing up and down the country because delivering a more broad and balanced curriculum is a key priority in education.

They are actively aiming to recruit staff that reflect the diversity of the country.
Which is of course racism itself. It should be the best placed candidate who gets the job. No matter what colour creed, sex or religion.

The national curriculum also requires the teaching of ethnic minority history including the consequences of the British Empire.
For the most part it is partially taught. But as has been said countless times. Both here and elsewhere. There is only so much teaching time available to cover other important historical events.

Papyrophile · 11/07/2024 20:54

The DfE won't need to recruit far locally. I live in Cornwall, which is more than 95% white. It's also beautiful and while it's expensive to buy a house, it's not totally impossible, so we have no significant teacher shortages (except in maths and physics). Teachers come here and stay.

suburburban · 11/07/2024 20:54

StarryIsabella · 11/07/2024 19:47

I graduated school a few years ago, am at uni now and all we ever learnt was how evil white countries where....

White privilege
Supremacy
Unconscious bias
Etc.....

What they don't teach you is most countries in Africa and Asia are just as bad.... But only white people are allowed to be vilified. 🤷🏼‍♀️

It's so tedious and causes resentment among the working classes

Papyrophile · 11/07/2024 20:59

Actually, most countries in Africa are just fundamentally corrupt. So much aid has been wasted, without any visible improvement in the quality of life for most.

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