War in Ukraine

[blackcherryconserve]

In today's news Russia has bombed a children's hospital in Kiev. Where is the uproar at a loss of life of 40 and increasing as I write?
I am wondering why Stop The War coalition group never demonstrates against Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine on a regular basis and they do on Israel/Gaza.
There is no subject heading on MN to discuss the ongoing war, unlike Conflict in the Middle East? Why is that? Are Ukrainian lives lesser than others?

Are there many people that don't support Ukraine?

Are Ukrainian lives lesser than others?

How can you say that when we have given billions and housed their refugees?

Everyone supports Ukraine, the support in the Israel/Gaza conflict is split, that's why it gets so much more attention, because people are arguing over who's to blame, whether Palestine should be recognised etc. With Ukraine it's much more black and white.

There are long running threads on it since the day it started.

Have we given billions, really? But that isn't the point I was making.

I'd like to know why people aren't out on the streets asking for Russians to lay down their arms. FYI I have Ukrainian ancestry.

I was personally heartbroken to see the images coming out of Kyiv, especially the child with a bald head hooked up to some kind of machine. It's utterly horrifying.

As for I am wondering why Stop The War coalition group never demonstrates against Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine on a regular basis and they do on Israel/Gaza I imagine it's because the UK government are in complete support of Ukraine and, as part of NATO, we have provided weapons to fight Russia.

People have war fatigue. It feels like Russia Ukraine has been forever. We have sent millions, weapons, tanks whatever but it’s not actually helping, just prolonging the war.

Ongoing threads in Chat OP. I agree with you. Come over to the threads, lots of very involved and well-informed commenters on there.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5102261-ukraine-invasion-part-50

I'd like to know why people aren't out on the streets asking for Russians to lay down their arms. FYI I have Ukrainian ancestry because that message wouldn't even reach Russia? Because, when people march for Gaza, they are hoping to influence and sway the British government on their stance towards the Palestinian people.

But demonstrations will reach Putin's ears.
I don't agree that our demonstrations over one war where we have limited ability to change things prevents us from demonstrating against another, especially when that war is on Europe's borders.

I'd like to know why people aren't out on the streets asking for Russians to lay down their arms.

It is clear there is no point of "asking", "demanding" or anything. RuSSian elite does not give a slightest shit of dying Ukrainians or RuSSians alike - own wounded soldiers deliberately left to rot alive in the fields, no medical attention, no supplies, nothing.
Palestine/Israel protests are different as actors in those conflicts have external support (financial, legislative, arms supply), so protesters try to influence that among many other things.

Yes it’s billions https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-in-kyiv-uk-support-will-not-falter

People protesting doesn’t make any difference at all. Britain has taken sides on this one.

with Israel Gaza the protests are to influence our own government

Will they really reach Putin's ears? The general consensus seems to be that Putun has a small inner circle who tell him what he wants to hear. The idea that he would be told that UK citizens are demonstrating against the war seems unlikely to me.

I think the people who are marching for Gaza want the UK to put more pressure on Israel to agree to a ceasefire. It's still a longshot but if the US also pressured Israel then it's plausible that Israel might think twice.

I totally understand your strength of feeling but I am just not sure the two situations are at all comparable.

Time will tell, however, if Europe made the right decision to not send in troops to Ukraine.

Putin does not care if people in the UK demonstrate against his actions. If anything, he likes the idea. A big part of his propaganda machine in Russia is that his actions make the West, where people have far nicer lives than the average Russian, angry and frustrated. The message is "We are strong and ruthless. They hate us for our fiercenrss and determination, but they can't stop us."

I spent four years living in Russia, during which time the invasion of Crimea occurred. The press was full of articles about how angry the American and British governments were but how Putin was strong and brave to defy them.

But would the Russian public get to hear if we protested as much against their war as we do in the Middle East? Surely Russians must be getting weary of being cannon fodder for Putin's dream of a new Russian empire?

Since freedom of speech is not allowed and the Kremlin controls the media it seems unlikely that any protests in the west will either get through or have any impact.

I did see that story today, it was so so sad. Putin isn't going to stop just because people in other countries show they don't like him. Or if we say please. He invaded another sovereign nation and now needs to show it was worth it to save face when it all went wrong.

It was wall to wall coverage when the war began, but newer conflicts across boarders created new news. I sincerely hope that the people of Ukrane win and keep their freedom, but it won't be all over the headlines until significant progress is made by one side or the other. Stalemate doesn't generate clicks.

So, do you think we should not have offered any support to Ukraine and just let Russia invade? Resulting in even more horror and deaths for Ukrainians and an emboldened Russia who would then seek to invade other European countries? I'm glad you don't have a foreign policy role in government.

I never said we should do nothing either.
just that currently it feels like it’s been going on forever and that the help isn’t helping in the sense of ending the conflict.

I get what you're saying, but I can't imagine Putin would give a toss about demonstrations against him in Western Europe. He knows how he's viewed and he doesn't care.

I'm not sure what you're expecting to happen. People in Russia will hear about Western protests and then they'll refuse conscription? The approval or lack thereof of a bunch of strangers in a different country ranks pretty low on the list of influencing factors when one is choosing between forced military service in wartime or imprisonment and torture for refusing. No one is going to think, "I was just going to go along with conscription but then I found out some people in Slough gathered on the High Street and said I shouldn't. Guess I'll just go to prison then!"

Protests are effective if they can convince our government to reduce support for an aggressive nation or to increase support for a nation under attack. They do nothing to or for the people actually living under the aggressive government. Unless protesters are willing to help Russian dodsodents escape and shelter them from Putin, then it means nothing to them.

There are two mindsets in Russia, from what I encountered there. Those who buy into Putin's propaganda and those who know it's bullshit but don't believe they can do anything about it. The second group generally want to leave, but there are extremely limited opportunities for them to do that.

Israel is heavily influenced by the EU, UK and US. Russia is not... we have influence on our government therefore we are able to demonstrate that we don't support this. Right now the government of this country Is selling the weapons killing palastinian women and children. They are not selling arms to Russia to kill Ukrainians. That's the reason.

That said I hope everyone responsible for needless killing and death is brought to justice

The second group generally want to leave, but there are extremely limited opportunities for them to do that Yes, and the people that did have the means have already left, in their hundreds of thousands. I think the thing that will influence ordinary Russians is the ongoing deaths of their young men but, in such a huge country with violent suppression of dissenting voices, it's hard to imagine that a large uprising will happen.

Well you made a post, didn't you?

Excuse me?