Is modern parenting damaging to kids?

[Rainbowsponge]

My friend’s husband is a professional in the area of child development and education. He’s taught at numerous schools, SEN schools and is now a researcher. He doesn’t have children, but I do, and yesterday we were talking about the seeming increase in children with anxiety, mental health issues and what he described as ‘delayed adulthood’.

He’s British but his extended family are from India, and he said visits to see them make a striking contrast between how our children are raised and how theirs are raised. He said children are sort of left to run around in packs and find their own amusement from quite a young age, and as a result they seem more mature and confident.

His theory is that we are interrupting normal development opportunities for kids brains, and therefore they’re not properly developing. He thinks we intervene too much in perfectly ordinary learning opportunities, like playground disagreements, and our quest to make sure our children never feel challenged or upset is actually making them more anxious.

He also thinks softer, more modern punishments are bewildering children and reinforcing bad behaviour, leaving them confused about right and wrong. Children read facial expressions, so seeing us look calm/unbothered rather than angry/disappointed when they’ve done something wrong is counterproductive and blocks them from naturally learning human behaviour and socialisation.

I’m not professing to be a perfect parent at all, but it was a really interesting chat and I want to discuss it further!

I guess it’s a question of whether we want kids to survive or thrive. It’s a question of what kind of relationships you want kids to have as adults and what kind of relationship you want with your child now and as they grow up.

Lots of elderly people alive today weren’t smacked and were raised gently. It’s not a new thing. It’s just better understood. You know when you meet them.

We can look to fellow mammals for similarities for sure. Our brains are very similar. But humans develop a frontal cortex and our relationships are far more complex. How many lion cups want to hang out with their parent and go on holiday with them once they have their own cubs? How many mammal grandparents help with childcare? We are more complex than other mammals.

I am really glad it’s going well for your child now. She sounds like me as a child. My parents used corporal punishment too. I’ve achieved well in life. I look to the outside world like a well adjusted and happy person with a marriage and DC and a highly paid professional job. What you wouldn’t know about is the internal struggles I have had. I’ve worked hard to understand my own insecure attachment and what it’s meant for my relationships and well-being. I don’t love my parents in the way I could have, had they been my secure base. Instead they were to be feared. I have a friendly relationship with them. It could be much better than it is.

Time will tell if your relationship with your child is secure enough around the times you physically assault her to see you through the teenage years and into an adult to adult relationship and how happy she will be or whether she will experience mental health issues or struggle in relationships. I hope that it’s fine.

I do genuinely hope that the warmth, love and acceptance you show her in between smacking her is enough. And that she has other significant relationships in her life that are warm and accepting and guide her without fear. I hope that when you shout and smack you are regulated and it’s a choice rather than you have lost it and scare the crap out of her on a regular basis because that’s the most damaging and can lead to disorganised attachment styles and significant mental health issues.

But if she ever struggles the best thing you can do for her and your relationship is to say sorry.

I wonder that too. I look back on the freedom I had and remember feeling fear mostly! Bullying was rife and older kids didn’t ‘look after’ us. My DC played out at one house we lived in because it was a cul-de-sac and all the kids and parents were lovely. I risk assessed it.

Surely you have seen parents around that do not put in place any visible boundaries and just keep staring at their screen, whatever their child is up to.
Being aggressive to a child, or anyone for that matter, is wrong. But either doing nothing or telling a child I am crossed, with a perfect straight face, showing no any signs of emotion, ever, does not sit right with me. And it would not work on my child.
Fear, threats.... not really, but telling them you need to be ready by such time or we will not go, because I refuse to be late, is a natural consequence to me, not a threat. Letting them be late for their activities is good to me too. And, at the end of the day, we need to get them ready for the working environment.

That’s not gentle parenting. That’s staring at a screen! That’s NOT parenting.at all. Gentle parenting is about focusing on the relationship and attachment alongside boundaries. Kids need boundaries consistently delivered in a warm and loving environment.

You can keep boundaries without anger. I have my ‘firm’ voice when I need it and use ‘choices and natural consequences’ rather than shout angrily and lay down the law. If I am getting angry I will say ‘I am starting to get cross now’ and say why. If I lose it and get angry I forgive myself for being human and then in a calm moment I’ll apologise and repair. I model how I’d like my child to behave in relationships.

My DH shouts angrily, threatens things, shows just how frustrated he is all the time. He gets stubborn kick back now we are in teenage years. I get honesty and rational discussions. DC more likely to stick to the rules with me and sneak things with DH.

Those consequences sound great to me. Natural or logical consequences make sense. When I said ‘fear’ I meant interpersonal fear, rather than fear of missing something which is a different kettle of fish.

I guess it’s a question of whether we want kids to survive or thrive. It’s a question of what kind of relationships you want kids to have as adults and what kind of relationship you want with your child now and as they grow up. Lots of elderly people alive today weren’t smacked and were raised gently. It’s not a new thing. It’s just better understood. You know when you meet them.

I said quite clearly I’ve never smacked and have never used any form of physical punishment. I’m just clear, direct, and don’t waffle or give too many choices. Sure she can choose her birthday presents and what she wants for breakfast but I don’t give her opinions at age 4 so much water that they dictate anything where I want the opposite to happen. I know people who have taken their children out of school, quit their job and home schooled just because the kid had perfectly normal nerves about starting school.

There is a vast area between ineffective, anxiety inducing ‘gentle parenting’ and smacking/beating/terrorising your child.

My child is thriving, she’s happy, sociable, and other people say what a joy she is to have around. She’s just won a reception class end of year award for her enthusiasm for school and learning (proud mum!). That’s not to say she doesn’t ever feel nerves - a distant male relative popped in the other day to say hello and she was shy at first and said she didn’t want to talk to him. I said you don’t have to talk to him but you do have to go in and say hello, once you’ve done that you can go off and play. Once the ice was broken she chose to stay in the room and happily chat/play with everyone. Clearly I’m a monster setting her up for a lifetime of people pleasing and submissiveness, and she’s destined to only survive, not thrive? Lol

Time will tell if your relationship with your child is secure enough around the times you physically assault her

Your reading comprehension skills are utterly woeful, please do read people’s posts in future in particular mine where I clearly state ‘I’VE NEVER SMACKED’. Or don’t, if it adds drama to your posts

@WellwellwellInever I do not recall refering especifically to gentle parenting in my posts.
I do not disagree with you on what you have described.
What I say is I have seen some people doing it wrong... and the children end up not really knowing how to behave.
Also, that we (I include myself) intervene too much, at least at times, on their little issues. The roaming free is dangerous, but if we get them to a safe place, like a park or big play area, letting them deal with their own issues, make their own play and entertainment is a huge learning opportunity for them. Many children these days have far too many organised and supervised activities and very little make your own fun time.
I do have a teenager and I know the battle of wills season is not fun, but it will pass.

I think some people do pussyfoot around children without creating clear boundaries. I also think girls are often held to a higher standard than boys with the ‘boys will be boys’ style approach which doesn’t really help.

I’ve tried to instil little bits of independence in mine where possible because I don’t think it’s fair to moddycoddle them and then expect them to manage at secondary suddenly or when they enter adulthood. My reception aged child will often make her own breakfast for example and enjoys being able to do it herself. We had a fair few weeks of milk being split, cereal on the floor etc while she was learning but she is very capable of sorting herself now a year later. I’m quite happy to let my 8yo be alone for 10-15 minutes at a time, have always encouraged her to order in restaurants/speak to people in shops etc and will gradually give a bit more independence each year.

Interestingly it’s the girls I know who are wrapped in cotton wool versus their brothers. I knew a few families like this - the little girl is snuggled and carried everywhere (past the age when that’s needed IYSWIM) and constantly ‘awww are you okay honey?’. The boys are left to their own devices and treated a bit like dogs, fed and watered but mostly left to their own devices while the parents fuss over their ‘princess’

Ok. So I don’t understand what your issue is with gentle parenting. It sounds like you aren’t smacking, threatening or shouting and sounds like you talk to her in a reasonable clear and direct way. I assume you are are also warm, empathic and loving. That’s gentle parenting?

The gentle parenting you are describing is not gentle it’s passive parenting. Child centred and child focused doesn’t mean child dictated.

I think this is the issue. Gentle parenting has become synonymous with passive parenting. Low boundaries and high warmth is as detrimental as high boundaries, low warmth (authoritarian) - all kids need boundaries delivered consistently within a warm loving relationship.

Ignoring poor behaviour is not good for anyone.

I do, I also raise my voice and shout very occasionally, around 2 or 3 times a year when she’s done something that needs an instant and off putting reaction (running into the road or throwing something that could break etc). Luckily I no longer have to do this as it put her off early on. People don’t set boundaries for toddlers then flail around as they get older trying to enforce discipline when the foundations are not there.

But yes I am warm, I read to her every night, we have lots of cuddles and talk a lot, I have patience if she falls over or is upset about something justified. However I don’t indulge crying over silly things (like not wanting to put shoes on). With those things it’s my way or my way.

Child centered can go wrong. Yes to centering your child's needs but they should only be given age appropriate decisions and their wants aren't always going to be good for them.

For example I'm cynical about the waiting for the child to want to potty train trend. A 2 year old isn't capable of considering the longer term consequences of being in nappies, obviously they are going to want to stick with what's convenient. A responsible adult needs to take the lead here because it's too big and serious a decision for a toddler.

The realistic expectations of different ages is the part of gentle parenting I like. It seems to be the first thing some gentle parents ditch from the examples here.

@combinationpadlock

I can't agree with you more. Especially pathologising normal everyday worries as "anxiety".

So you are doing gentle parenting and are raising a securely attached child. Gentle parents have to raise their voice at those times too. Building a secure attachment doesn’t mean never losing your cool and never shouting. It doesn’t mean giving the child complete freedom.

The problem is that people see passive parenting and assume it’s deliberate.

Also it’s really hard, if you had authoritarian parenting and you want to be authoritative and build a secure attachment relationship, to know how - what does that look like? Add in the observer effect when you think someone is watching and judging you and it’s really hard.

Also I think we see snap shots of parenting and make generalisations. One of my worst parenting fails was shouting at my overtired hungry toddler who had thrown himself on the ground in a supermarket. I was over tired and hungry too. Anyone witnessing it would have thought I was a horrible aggressive inpatient parent. They didn’t see the rest of my day or week where I was the opposite. Or the time when I was distracted and he fell and hurt himself - I’d be labelled neglectful. The mum we see on her phone, not noticing bad behaviour might have just had a message her dad has died. We just don’t know.

I think making generalisations based on snap shots is unhelpful. I think labelling these snap shots as ‘modern parenting’ or ‘gentle parenting’ is over simplifying and over generalising.

I think there is more than one cause of anxiety increasing in children. The main issue I have with the 'its the parenting disrupting development' is that I know lots of families where only one child has anxiety and not the other. I know parents treat children differently, but normally their stance on things like playing out unsupervised is consistent.

I do agree that gentle parenting has become confused with permissive parenting. I utilise alot of techniques from gentle parenting.

I inform my child why a behaviour is wrong I am warm and loving. I use terms like "I have asked you three times to take your bowl to the table and you are not listening to me. Take you bowl to the kitchen" in a firm but not shouting voice.

I have also read that you shouldn't praise a child as it dampens their inner pride but positive reinforcement has been the best thing for my sons behaviour. He will now go and spend 20 minutes building his lego and come and show me with a big proud smile and I reinforce that by saying he has done brilliantly. You could compare that to our adult life where a supportive boss makes for happy emoyees so why wouldn't I use that tool.

However aspects of it are not workable with my child for example what is the natural consequence for hitting his baby brother? One could argue the natural consequence is to hit the child to show them how it feels. However I will not hit my child so for me a punishment of a time out breaks the behaviour and works for us. All the gentle parenting approaches i previously tried like talking about emotions lead to more hitting.

I have said to friends that I use time outs and they are agast and almost consider it abuse. Similar to the arguments surrounding sleep training. It's compared to abuse on here by some. I see these comparisons as almost downplaying actual abuse which is massively detrimental to mental health.

So I don't follow one 'style', I parent as I see best and my 4 year old is very well balanced, confident and happy little boy who is great with his brother and all issues with hitting have gone.

I have scrolled through this partly as there is so much to read and partly cos I have COVID and my brain is not at its best.

I feel very strongly that there is a complex web of influences on how people parent. The socio economic situation they are in, the stability of their life, housing etc. The way they were parented, where they lived, how old they are when they become parents ...

I was a product of 70s/ 80s my parents had very different approaches, dad benign neglect ( he was pre 2nd world war silent generation), my mum a boomer, highly anxious but prone to anger and smacking and both fucked up by their own parents.

I did plenty of running around on the moors, but we were living in West Yorkshire in the late 70s early 80s we were scared of the Ripper (not to mention Jimmy Saville!). So it was probably a bit risky. We were sitting in smoke filled buses, trains and cinemas we were being given a bottle of pop and some crisps and left outside the pub for the day. Yes we were resilient but also reckless and a bit disengaged from other generations.

I have been much more engaged as a parent. I have looked at the kids I have, the person I am and DH is and parented in a different way. Breast fed for years, didn't smack, didn't sweat the small stuff but set boundaries to make them feel safe and seen. Communication is very important and of course fresh air/ access to nature. But not really limited screen use just taught them to be cautious.The kids are late teens and all have their wits about them. Kind, polite, able to converse with adults. The older two neuro diverse and struggled socially at school and yes a bit anxious as dealing with the sensory overload of modern life takes a toll. But I don't believe that their anxiety is pathologised, it is inate. There are a number of people in previous generations of our family who all share similar traits and don't deal with their mental health as well. No one had the tools or the language to help them understand. So alcohol dependency and poor mental health, poor life choices are rife.

My mother had a horrible childhood and has tried to kill herself numerous times since she was 12. My kids have been supported, allowed to express their feelings and given tools to manage life as best they can. I disagree strongly with the op. Well meant as I am sure it is.

@FlemCandango all the gentle parents I know though would say the anxiety is ‘innate’, how do you tell if it is or isn’t? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that children with this type of parent just seem so much more anxious and overwhelmed with life than children raised in benign neglect with parents who didn’t introspect on their feelings too much.

What you’ve said basically confirms my OP, while claiming it doesn’t.

I don't hit my kids and never have. And I never want to as I don't actually agree with it. I'm just saying it is not in the same level as actual child abuse. It's insulting to those actually abused to insinuate a smack when a child is really naughty is the same as regular beatings and nasty insults.

Even if we take smacking out of it, these days just shouting at a child is abuse. Putting them in time out is abuse. It's all ridiculous. Mums and dads just don't know how to parent properly because if they're not absolutely perfect, they're supposedly messing their kids up for life. Which is why parents are so soft these days.

You only have to read half the comments on this site saying if a father so much as raises his voice at a child they're abusive and the mum should leave him. And if the mum loses her shit sometimes she needs therapy. It's mad.

I think there's a huge difference between expecting your children to reply politely when you run into someone in Tesco, and expecting them to stand in front of the world's media in Downing Street.

I think Starmer is doing the right thing by keeping his work and family as separate as possible.

Mostly, how we parent is a reflection on our own personality. I've never punished my kids and often people are surprised at that. It didn't start out due to any strong beliefs I had regarding punishments but because firstly, it seemed a lot of effort and secondly, it just seemed like it didn't make sense to me.
Is that gentle parenting?
That doesn't mean I'm a slack or a permissive parent and in many ways, I'm quite strict.
My dc have chores, they're expected to do their best at school, they're expected to have good manners, I explain why I have such expectations and what the benefits are. I've always tried to foster a good connection and talk about these things.

My dc are resilient and have normal levels of anxiety in normal situations, like before an exam or a test or trying something for the first time. I tell them it's normal and everyone feels nervous in such situations.

I feel like I've tried my best but time will tell. I think we all make mistakes as parents as we're all humans but I just parent in the way that just comes naturally to me, as I'm sure most people do.

I go with the DDP method of a 30 second scold with anything dangerous or harmful. In a very firm loud voice (that I try not to use too much so it’s quite a shock) - ‘Don’t hit your brother! We don’t hurt each other! If you are feeling cross you use words!’ Then I repair by calming my voice and asking what happened and then a logical consequence like saying sorry, doing something kind to put it right, time away to calm bodies down. On a good day!! On a bad day not so much 😂 We are allowed bad days.

I think sleep training takes many forms and leaving a baby to cry until they throw up is abusive BUT if it’s that or throttle them because you are on your last legs it’s essential. I think it very much depends on the parent, the child and the circumstances. I co slept (in a bedside cot then the same bed when older so I could BF in the night without getting up). We then waited until DC were ready to go to their own room. It worked for us. But if I’d been a single parent and had to go back to work it wouldn’t have worked for us. It’s about what happens most of the time. If the baby’s emotional needs are met most of the time then ignoring crying at night is probably not going to detrimental.

It’s shades of grey rather than black and white I think. As with most things to do with humans.

It is indeed. I guess that’s only a problem if you replicate unhelpful or harmful patterns from your own experience of childhood without thinking. I had to work hard to be different as my parents caused me unintentional harm.

I think ‘I am doing my best and I did my best’ are really good parenting mantras. We all do make mistakes for sure!

Any tips on getting them to do chores. If I ask for help it often works but very hard to get any kind of routine chores delegated without A LOT of input!

I agree!! Completely.

I think you are right - there is a difference between abuse and unhelpful parenting styles and it gets in the way of decent discussion. If parents feel they will be labelled abusive they are more likely to be defensive and less likely to reflect - we are only human.

Severity, intensity and frequency are important.

Me shouting at my toddler and frightening him would be emotional abuse if that was my everyday parenting - but as a once every couple of years occurrence it’s just a bad day and mitigated by the rest of the time (I hope) that I’m a calm, stable and kind parent. It’s not good it happened at all, but it’s not abuse.