Is modern parenting damaging to kids?

[Rainbowsponge]

My friend’s husband is a professional in the area of child development and education. He’s taught at numerous schools, SEN schools and is now a researcher. He doesn’t have children, but I do, and yesterday we were talking about the seeming increase in children with anxiety, mental health issues and what he described as ‘delayed adulthood’.

He’s British but his extended family are from India, and he said visits to see them make a striking contrast between how our children are raised and how theirs are raised. He said children are sort of left to run around in packs and find their own amusement from quite a young age, and as a result they seem more mature and confident.

His theory is that we are interrupting normal development opportunities for kids brains, and therefore they’re not properly developing. He thinks we intervene too much in perfectly ordinary learning opportunities, like playground disagreements, and our quest to make sure our children never feel challenged or upset is actually making them more anxious.

He also thinks softer, more modern punishments are bewildering children and reinforcing bad behaviour, leaving them confused about right and wrong. Children read facial expressions, so seeing us look calm/unbothered rather than angry/disappointed when they’ve done something wrong is counterproductive and blocks them from naturally learning human behaviour and socialisation.

I’m not professing to be a perfect parent at all, but it was a really interesting chat and I want to discuss it further!

What I'm reading here is people don't seem to understand the difference between actual child abuse (beatings, nasty name calling, starving, saying things like child is useless, etc) to just parents being strict.

I don't hit my kids and never have, but I know of parents that will give a smack bum as a repercussion to their child being naughty. Or sending a child to their room for 'time out' when they just won't do as they're told - I have done that. That's not child abuse it's teaching a child to do as they're told or there will be consequences. That's life.

If you don't do as you should at work, or cause problems, you'll lose your job. If you are in a relationship and you're rude, or disrespectful, that relationship won't last.

Being strict and trying to ensure your child knows right from wrong, and there are repercussions to bad behaviour isn't child abuse, but society nowadays will have us believe it is and I think it causes too much stress on parents to try to be perfect and actually makes us more stressed and then worse parents.

I don't think toddlers having tantrums are to be punished at all, but an older child who just won't do as they're told or are deliberately doing something they know they shouldn't, or they've been told they shouldn't, should be punished imo. I'm not talking huge punishments but loss of toys/treats or time outs.

@Thedayb4youcame apologies if this has already been answered; I'm just halfway through the thread but my understanding is that broadly speaking men tend to choose a more violent method than women so it's more likely to 'work' if that makes sense. I read that when gas ovens were more of a thing, women's suicide rates were much higher because they often used those.

Ah yes, my late mother (born 1943) frequently used the term "stick my head in the oven", given that it had once been an option for suicide, indeed as a child growing up in the 80s, it was common to hear adults speaking about people they knew who'd done it.

One small point though, and interestingly I come at this angle from a backgound selling domestic appliances ad opposed to a clinical dimension, it wasn't the decline of gas ovens that would have contributed to a reduction in suicides from this method, rather it would have been due to the switch from coal gas to natrual gas, the latter being incapable of killing through inhalation (though of course a gas explosion could easily be rigged and kill).

UK homes were converted to natural gas over an 8 year period, from 1968 to 1976, I have just read on Google (I knew about the conversion but not the exact time in the 70s).

I agree with this but part of the reason they are crying out for volunteers is because of rude, uncooperative children and adults who believe their child is the only one that matters. It's bad enough having to put up with that when paid for but the number willing to do it for free is dropping g rapidly.

My problem is often not so much with the kids but rather the parents. They viewed things like scout leaders as their childcare and treated us like shit.

I quit not because of the kids but the entitled parents who thought their child could do no wrong. I have friends who are teachers and have described the exact same behaviour in parents.

Indeed there was a very funny thread where a parent decided her child's music teacher would continue to teach her child after she was rude to them. Ironically enough everyone called her out but I have delt with those parents in real life and honestly as a young women it can be quite overwhelming. I'm older now and have more of a backbone but I don't want to deal with asshole parents treating me like shit in my spare time. However as my kids are now approaching beaver age I will if o ly to make sure they have the same opportunities I had.

We're already there. Managing uni leavers at work is already an epic nightmare. The lack of autonomy is crippling.

This is very interesting. I tend to very much agree with your friend, and I came to this conclusion based on my won childhood experience + life of my friend and her sister.

My friend like me was born in the 90s, we both liked active play. I was a bit more feral, considering I was a girl, I much preferred playing with boys and playing rough. My friend is more girly, she liked barbies and fashion. Her sister is 18 years younger than my friend (large generational difference) and although brought up by same parents, she is complete crystal vase: expects everything done for her, can't defend herself verbally, gets upset about little nonsignificant things, very princess like and struggles to make friends!

I don't know how much of it is parenting, because both grew up in same household, but I certainly think that society is being too gentle on kids and should be expecting higher standards. In the 90s it was OK to receive a bit of 'bollocking' from a stranger on the street. But now apparently it is not, even if the child is disturbing the societal norms and peace.

Well he's a mansplaining expert without kids isn't he!! Typical expert, thinking he knows everything but hasn't parented a literal day in his life.

Kids running around in packs is his preference? Does he have any idea the danger that can happen leaving kids to just run about unchecked. So many weirdos about.

I see it all the time, it is such a shame. I have a younger friend who moved out of the catchment area for the school where her 5 year old daughter is. They allowed her to stay till the end of year, but have now said she has to go to their new catchment area school, which is just as good.

Mum is refusing to accept this. Instead of fighting her case quietly, and at the same time being positive in front of the child- saying she can keep in touch with all her old friends a few minutes away, and have the opportunity ot make lots of new ones- she has openly ben talking about how awful, how nasty, how discriminatory, how horrible- etc. The daughter has picked up on this and is very upset. They will probably not win the appeal, so it will all be even more traumatic for child. Just no need. Child would have accepted the situation with a few tears- but now it is getting very complicated and upsetting.

We're already there. Managing uni leavers at work is already an epic nightmare. The lack of autonomy is crippling.

Yep agree. I had a new grad who was working remotely go totally awol for two weeks last year. Eventually she reemerged and said she was "feeling a bit overwhelmed" and "needed some self care". I'm not kidding. It's absolutely wild.

Yes I believe it is. In my experience, parents with a very modern approach are actually hand capping their DCs in the long term. I'm talking about being overly inclusive e.g. letting small DCs choose where to holiday or what car their parents drive. Also, not imposing firm boundaries and allowing their DCs to get away with murder. Wrapping DCs in cotton wool and never allowing them to suffer the consequences of their own actions. Helicoptering and micro managing DCs to the point where the child never has a moment to 'just be'.

I have witnessed the end results of this type of parenting and it's not pretty. DCs that are now graduating university are completely incapable of functioning alone or in the workplace.

Glad to hear it!

She started going out and about by herself and walking to school and everything alone at 7 and I always see so much condemnation of this sort of thing on Mumsnet. My 6 year old runs round to his friend's house and goes to the playground as well, but he's not allowed as far as her.

But good if it's normal for 9 year olds at least, that's brilliant to hear. I still don't believe children in the bit of England where I grew up have as much freedom as my kids do because whenever I'm there I just don't see young kids out by themselves at all. Unaccompanied children always seem to be secondary age.

@RosieAway if you laugh at your child being cheeky, then get cross with them that's likely to cause confusion. Better to say "Maisie, watch your tone" ie consistent guidance of what is (not) acceptable

I don't understand your point about not wanting DD to be nice to your friend cos he's a nan. This is about good banners, not patriarchy

Agree. I used to volunteer for groups for young people and in the last couple of years have quit them all - it became a majority not a minority of entitled parents and insufferable kids.

Parents all bemoan the absence of volunteers but they reap what they sow.

Yep I work in higher education and they have no resilience. I actually think university does them a massive disservice as once you say the word anxiety they are given free reign to not attend, not engage in small group learning, tutorials and labs.

The issue is these small group sessions are designed to replicate team meetings in the real world. We are teaching them how to engage in small informal groups, to discuss concepts they are learning. And actually from an anxiety treatment perspective the worse thing you can do is encourage disengagement, the literature shows that once students overcome the initial fear of these small groups they greatly reduce anxiety and improve not only academic outcomes but also confidence and employability.

I have a close relation who is a gp. They have real concerns - constantly have patients who diagnose themselves as depressed because they have some low moments….. no one seems to realise that life is not a perma carousel of fun and getting everything you want. As you say, there is no resilience in many people these days - if life’s not working out as planned there needs to be blame. Obviously they also have patients who really are and really do need help - and there is not enough provision because others who just need a hand hold demand more than they need…

once you say the word anxiety they are given free reign to not attend, not engage in small group learning, tutorials and labs.

How have universities gotten to this stage?

Don’t get me wrong - I have (actual) diagnosed mental health conditions, but the redbrick I attended didn’t treat them like a get out of jail free card for anything I didn’t like doing.

Surely all that happens is the students end up with poorer grades, and the university looks bad?

It certainly explains the calibre of the younger people my employer employees though. They’re lovely people but can’t do anything unless directed and try and avoid doing anything that’s boring or scary.

It's a mixture of a genuine wish to help the very large number of students with very real mental health problems, academics with zero medical training making decisions and so erring on the side of caution, and a case where a university was found to have provided too little support to a student who died through suicide.

We have lost several of our students to suicide since I career changed to academia nearly ten years ago. Multiple colleagues have taken students to A&E and at least another has had a student in his office that he refused to allow leave until a parent arrived (contacted with the student's consent obviously) as he was so concerned.

Most students aren't helped by our caution, most need to learn that feeling anxious about an exam or stressed when deadlines overlap is very normal. But the number who need significant support is growing all the time and we have next to zero backup from our overwhelmed wellbeing services and of course the overwhelmed NHS.

He's not wrong. Children are overprotected in real world but under protected online.

How did you get your kids to entertain themselves without screens?

FTM, my DC is under 2 and will tantrum, scream etc. if we try to put them in a highchair, sometimes in car seats etc. I don't want to use screens as a crutch but not sure how to manage/stop the screaming in public.

There is a child in my child's class who has terrible attendance, they're 10yo and they must have missed 50% of the year. The reason is anxiety and while I'm not discounting some level of anxiety, I've observed on multiple occasions this child being bought into school perfectly happy looking, has a bit of a play with their friends in the playground, then at the front door they turn to their mum and say, I don't want to today and mum says 'ok', they turn around and go home.

I accept that I can't see what has happened at home before and after, but it doesn't appear that any effort is made to ask why to try to convince them to stay, to make any alternative arrangements like starting a little earlier or later, going straight into the classroom..... just complete abdication of decision making by the parent.

This

I have had situations where I have had serious concern that students would ommit suicide.

However the problem is like the pp said regarding GPS that a large number of students think they have anxiety because they get butterflies before an exam meaning the services and support aren't there for those who desperately need it.

So to deal with it the universities are covering themselves by handing out individual learning plans to half the students because they feel anxious about an assesment. These plans give them the get out of jail free card. Ironically irrelevant of these plans those that don't attend do not do well in exams. Which seems obvious but hey ho still have to point it out to students.

The start small and build up concept seems to have gone by wayside with some parents and instead they seem to think at age x they will be ready to do that.
It’s unkind to children to not permit them any freedom and then suddenly expect them to function. It’s like running marathon before you’ve attempted a 5K.
I’m not surprised volunteer numbers are so down. The children I volunteer with are lovely but it’s extremely time consuming dealing with parents.
Some parents are very quick to complain.
We are literally having to spell out things that wouldn’t have been an issue even a few years ago. I’m sure some parents think wtf it’s bloody obvious why are they saying that but then hopefully see some of the questions we get and realise.
Some parents do not understand theirs is not the only child being cared for.
We are definitely more cautious re what we do in case parents don’t like it which creates vicious circle of less opportunities for children.

Ah yes that wonderful free range childhood from the past - where children were killed or seriously injured in traffic at a massive rate (12,478 in 1979 to 1,980 in 2013 - down 84 per cent) despite less traffic

I think it is worth remembering that seat belts weren't mandatory in 1979, very few children were securely restrained, maybe a lap belt if you were lucky, which was bugger all use in the event of crash !
636 children died in road related accidents in 1979 and 512 in 2013. I don't think we have much to get excited about if I am being honest. I used to cross a major road in my town on my way to school in the 70's/80's and it was easy to cross safely, plenty of big gaps in the traffic and no cars parked on the roadside. From 1975 to 1989 there was one child injured in my town due to crossing the road, one died in a car accident, one of suicide and one drowned, all tragic and preventable but not unduly unusual, unfortunately

Or do you think it's possible she has undiagnosed SEN? Homesickness is an absolute pig, I have one very independent teen who quite honestly wouldn't be seen dead with me! And who likes to hold my hand (which gets dropped immediately if we bump into friends). I don't mollycoddle either of mine, I'm really hoping they'll both find their wings and fly, and have the adventures I had; but I'm aware they are not me, and if they want to live nearby as adults then that's their choice.
I took myself off around the world in my 20s, lots of people wouldn't go solo travelling, just as lots of people don't want to live in their parents home forever. But some do, and so long as everyone is happy with their choice, then it's not for us to judge.
Again I think anxiety has a higher genetic influence than upbringing in most cases.