Passport office wanting GREAT Grandmother’s birth certificate

[FunWithFlagz]

(edited by MNHQ at request of OP)
I’m trying to get a passport for my granddaughter. She lives with me permanently. I’ve had an email asking for MY mothers birth certificate because I was born after 01/01/1983 so my not automatically be a British citizen. My mum is abroad on an extended boomer retirement holiday and her house is 120 miles away. Sending off for a copy would take 15 working days and I fly in 4 weeks…

Has anyone heard of such batshittery before? I never had to send my mums birth certificate when I got my own kids passports!

AIBU to think that this is insane and this passport officer is clearly bonkers?

It's not that unusual!

Just means both mums had their first child under 20.

I don't know the laws surrounding this but it does seem bonkers! Hope you get it sorted soon. Also, my mum became a grandma before the age of 41 so it definitely can and does happen.

I am so confused. Does the law mean that if my British born dc who were born in the 1990s and early 2000s to two British parents have children, those children won't automatically be British citizens?

Will my British born dc (with British born ancestors going way back ) have to provide my proof of British citizenship to obtain British citizenship for their future dc?

They may automatically be British citizens or they might not, since 1983 being "British born" isn't enough. The passport office cannot tell without you providing the evidence.

If/when your DC go on to have children of their own then those children will automatically be British citizens if at least one of their parents was a British citizen or settled here at the time of birth. But they need to provide evidence of that in order to get a passport.

Normally, having a British passport at the time of the birth of the child should be sufficient to provide evidence but it is possible that if the mother has got a new passport after the birth of the child then they may not be able to link back to her original passport from when the child was born. In that case, they would need to go back to scratch and look at the birth certificate.

There’s a helpline to call, give them a ring and check that’s correct, as it seems excessive as you’re the grandparent, I’ve not heard of them needing great-grandparents certificates

Someone mentioned ancestry for the gro index. Most public libraries allow you to use genealogy sites for free when you log in, worth checking yours as this could speed up the process!

Such a shame u didn’t plan the trip and get things in place earlier.

Not exactly. You are confusing obtaining citizenship and proving you are a citizen.

In the circumstances we’re talking about here no one is obtaining citizenship. They all have it by birthright, the issue is proving that so that authorities treat them as citizens and issue passports.

Also, your British born DC would only have to prove their own citizenship to prove their own British born DC were citizens.

But it seems in this case the passport office for some reason do not find OP’s passport or her DD’s passport to be sufficient to show that the DGC was born to a British citizen so they are asking for the paper trail all the way back to 1983. Which seems like it could become a huge nightmare (and/or make the UK the most genealogically aware country in the world) down the line.

I imagine they would accept your Mum's passport details rather than birth certificate. I'd check that would be OK then call her for the details.

Doesn’t seem hugely likely given neither OP’s nor her DD’s passports are acceptable.

This is a good suggestion.

OP's Mum (the GGM) was born before 1983 and was British before then. so hopefully her passport details will suffice.

The bods in the passport office processing OP's application for her GD have probably never dealt with a case where the DM AND the GM were both born after 01.01.83 so being a bit jobsworthy in their requests. Hopefully providing GGM passport number will help them resolve the issue.

Yes but OP's Mum was born before 1983 which seems to be the problem.

The issue here is that anyone born in the UK after 01.01.83 isn't automatically a British citizen entitled to a passport.

Assuming OP's DM (applicant's GGM) had a British passport before 01.01.83, then her descendants are entitled to one too (I'm not sure if this applies to descendants born outside the UK, but not relevant here as OP said all UK born).

OP's circumstances are slightly unusual in that she's the guardian of her GD, and OP (applicant's grandma), OP's DD/DS (applicant's parent) and OP's GD (passport applicant) were all born after 01.01.83.

The passport office are trying to confirm that OP's GD is entitled to have a British passport, and to do that they are trying to go back to the first person who had British citizenship in their own right i.e. GGM who was born before 01.01.83.

The suggestion to provide GGM's passport number is a good one as they should have a record about when she was first issued with one.

@Starseeking The suggestion to provide GGM's passport number is a good one as they should have a record about when she was first issued with one.

Except OP and her DD were both issued passports well before DGD was born and providing those passport numbers has apparently not been enough, so why would providing GGM’s?

I understand that the law changed in 1983 which is why 1983 is the relevant date.

But another pp made a really good point earlier in the thread, which is that whilst this situation is highly unusual now because very few people born after 1983 are grandparents, it's going to become increasingly common with time. Surely they need to find a more practical way of establishing a child's right to a British passport than requiring them to provide birth certificates for all their ancestors until before 1983. If the OP's grandchildren become parents at a young age as well, we could be in a situation in 15 years' time where people are having to provide their great great grandparents' birth certificates in order to get a passport. Where does it end? The administrative burden is huge, not to mention the financial burden because if you are providing someone else's birth certificate you will usually need to order your own copy, at £11 a pop.

Did she say she was born after 1983? That would make her a young Grandmother, not impossible but young.

That's strange My DS never had to have any appointments for first adult passport

Really? I know plenty of people ( myself included) who were grandmother's before the age of 41.

Quite of people I knew as a teenager were married off at 15/16. ( Often being sent to Pakistan to do so) so by 41 very likely they had grandchildren

If they had a child passport then getting an adult passport from age 16 is done as a renewal

An actual First Adult Passport is when they've never had a child passport beforehand

Ah right The poster stated a first adult passport was same as a first child passport. Never any appointments for that either

Yeah, they'd only need an appointment for a first child passport if they were doing a fast track one.

To put it politely, I'm not sure any member of the UK Government in 1981 responsible for the Act thought beyond anything other than making it more difficult for immigrants to access British Citizenship and passports after 01.01.83.

Successive governments have continued on the trend in tightening up the rules around these documents, despite the unintended consequences.

It doesn't help OP now, however I expect as this becomes more of an administrative and resourcing issue, due to getting further and further away from the arbitrary date of 01.01.83, I imagine they will have found a more pragmatic way to deal with it.

@Starseeking exactly, it is introduced to make it harder to gain British citizenship. It’s to stop birth tourism. You can no longer gain citizenship just by coming here as a tourist or illegal migrant and giving birth. This also applies to anyone already in the UK. You aren’t a British citizen unless your parents are and you have to proof it either via an ancestor who is born before 1983, have a parent who has already proved it (via a passport), or a parent who has naturalised.

At some point, for someone who hasn’t gone a parent with a passport, they will have to trace ancestors born 100s of years ago.

Hello, wondered if anyone could help. I am British, as are my parents and partner and children. For my 1st child application for passport, I sent their birth certificate, both British passport numbers from our passports. Passport came back within a few weeks. About a year ago, my 1st child was 1 year old. I have done the same for my second child. They wanted birth certificate for her. So all sent. Received an email and they want further documents. Including my mother’s birth certificate. So my child’s grandmother. I do not understand why they would want this. When I’ve held a British passport all my life and my first child didn’t require all this. They also want marriage certificate, my birth certificate, I have contacted them twice. They wearnt very helpful and said if that’s what they want, that’s what you need to send them. Has anyone had any experience of this? Have they made a mistake? Thank you.

Sounds like they are asking for info they don't need. If you have given your passport number then that's your proof of British citizenship to pass on to your child.