Lucy Letby ( To understand)

[PassingStranger]

What made her kill these babies. Been in the news again today.

It's hard to understand?
Presume as she is in prison and not a hospital, she is not mentally ill?

Will anyone try to find out, I guess if people don't admit they are guilty it's hard too.

Instead of people saying give me 5 mins in a cell with her, surely it's better to stop this happening or maybe it's not possible?
Why does she want to be one of the most hated women in the universe and not give a shit about the babies families and even her own parents?

So much better to be known for doing something nice and have people like you?
AIBU to wonder why she took this road in life?

Yes, most mentally ill people are not murderous or 'evil'. But most of not all murderous people are mentally unwell. I was just responding to the idea that she couldn't be mentally unwell as she has as in prison. Ime, the 'police doctors' don't have a clue.

Oh that turned my blood cold. 😳😱

But it needs to be in context-she searched for a lot of other people as well and didn’t harm them or their family members as well as searching those she allegedly did, so that would make her searches irrelevant. If she had ONLY searched for those people then yes I’d say that was an indicator of guilt but it’s not the case for that point of evidence

Do you believe that about every serial killer then or it is because Lucy letby is female, young and attractive enough that people can't fathom she would do such a thing?

Yes it oversteps boundaries. However, it does not do anything to prove she is a murderer. Maybe she is someone who struggles separating her work and home life. Still doesn't make her a murderer,

So there’s someone else on the ward who is a killer? Why did the deaths stop once LL was removed? If it was someone else, why didn’t they continue killing?

But think about this - if the consultants were trying to cover something up about their own competence / practice, why were they the ones to pursue escalating investigative procedures to further look into the deaths?

Wouldn't, simply leaving things alone, be far easier and less risky than an elaborate criminal conspiracy to frame LL?

If you were guilty of causing deaths through some kind of neglect or malpractice and you wanted to cover it up, would you:

Constantly press for further investigation of the deaths, up to and including the involvement of the police?

Or

Not do that?

This also doesn't explain why the deaths correlate so well to LL being on shift. Surely, if the deaths were cause by malpractice, neglect or incompetence, they could be expected to continue at the same rate whether she was at work or not?

If remorseless criminality is too rare for it to be plausible in LL, how is plausible that multiple remorseless criminals existed in one neonatal unit willing to conspire to frame her for murder, perjuring themselves in court in front of grieving families, knowing her innocence?

Maybe it was at a point they knew that they had to do something but wanted to make sure they weren’t implicated ?

Im still very unsure about the stillbirth rate being high at the same time ? That seems very concerning.

I do feel that she is either an innocent scapegoat or she has a type of concealed conduct disorder and had to work hard at disguising this form even herself hence no worrying aspects of her past or searches - but this would be so highly unusual and possibly a new diagnosis not seen before . Whatever the truth in this case it’s not straightforward

But were there excess deaths when she wasn’t on shift? Were those investigated or disregarded as she couldn’t have been responsible? What about the still birth rates being high at the same time ?

I’ve read a lot about how she presented standing there, doing nothing etc - this is what makes me wonder about a concealed conduct disorder and was she ‘zoning out’ to disassociate herself once she had given in to an urge ? With her past and her presentation etc being so atypical to someone accused/convicted of such crimes I think what needs looking into is an obscure / new disorder or that she is in fact innocent

But they faced sanctions and threats for escalating their concerns, far from being pressed into raising them?

Is it possible that you have an emotional agenda here because it seems you're determined to view the events from the perspective of LL being innocent, and are retrospectively trying to come up with explanations of how that can be so, which seem to unravel very quickly when examined? Do you really think you're looking at this from a neutral perspective?

This. There have been so many institutional cover ups - post office, police, government. It wouldn't surprise me if the NHS wanted a cover up as well.

You’re probably correct as I was wrongly accused of MSBP (FII) years ago and was lied about but only cleared my name as id ripped out pages from notes at the end of my child’s bed and secretly recorded doctors (which I could only use as a transcript for evidence not the actual recording) so yes I’ve seen from the other side how things can escalate extremely quickly, be made up and things taken out of context.

But as I said in my post, each 'piece' of evidence can be explained away in isolation. But how do you ignore tens and tens of pieces of evidence that interact and make up the bigger picture? They haven't hung lots and lots of small pieces of evidence on anyone else it points to have they? If they have got it wrong in regards to LL there would be evidence that these neonatal deaths can be attributed to either another person or an organisation. They do find this stuff out...look at the blood products deaths, they've attributed that to an organisation rather than individuals. If it was a systemic issue with the hospital as well as individual responsibility surely they'd follow that too? Why wouldn't they if the evidence is there?

But who decides they are sane? The police said my DP was sane when he was actually in full blown psychosis and was sectioned the following day. I don't think them saying people are sane means anything.

There were no unexpected deaths when she wasn't on shift, and no deaths on ward when she was away on holiday.

When she was pulled off the ward and put on clerical duties, the suspicious deaths stopped immediately.

Like you seem to be coming at this from the perspective of she can't have done this because why would she, what explanation is there. It's "too evil" and she's "too normal". Which I totally get.

But psychopathy and other personality / conduct disorders aren't that rare and appalling crime in including cold premeditated murder does happen, and serial killers do exist. We don't need a new diagnosis to explain that, I personally think her conduct fits very well with high functioning psychopathy.

It has to be possible to stop serial killers even when they don't confess, if the evidence points them. All the evidence supports that LL is a serial killer and we shouldn't be looking to exonerate her only because murdering tiny babies in cold blood feels unfathomable.

I don’t think she’s too normal , I don’t know her so there could be aspects of her that are really not normal but the image she has cultivated whether that’s organic or manipulated is ‘normal’. I do feel though that it’s ’too Evil’ as I just can’t see how anyone could have that mindset. It’s just horrific. Then I have the added complication in my mind where I’ve been accused of something I didn’t do and thought it would be easy to clear my name , just tell the truth right? But suddenly I was having made up rubbish thrown at me and I couldn’t believe it and if someone had told me it had happened to them prior to that I’d have thought there were a conspiracy theorist nutter ! But there I was in that position so I do see it from both sides.

Just had to run off and google conduct disorder, that’s a bit of a minefield! As I was reading I was thinking it didn’t seem to fit well here but was also wondering is this something a bit like ADHD back in the day when it was thought of as a ‘boy thing’. Mainly (hugely simplifying and generalising here) because the boys were more likely to act out and girls were just quieter and less problematic. Then I scrolled down to this -

The majority of research on conduct disorder suggests that there are a significantly greater number of males than females with the diagnosis, with some reports demonstrating a threefold to fourfold difference in prevalence.[56]ever, this difference may be somewhat biased by the diagnostic criteria which focus on more overt behaviors, such as aggression and fighting, which are more often exhibited by males. Females are more likely to be characterized by covert behaviors, such as stealing or running away. Moreover, conduct disorder in females is linked to several negative outcomes, such as antisocial personality disorder and early pregnancy,[57]suggesting that sex differences in disruptive behaviors need to be more fully understood.

On-going work to understand what - if anything - conduct disorder is. Thanks for mentioning it. This discussion is very helpful to me for reasons nothing to do with Lucy letby’s case.

cover up of what? It was the doctors themselves who raised it? If they hadn’t god knows how long it would have gone on for.

I don’t think the fact that it’s unusual means she’s innocent. As soon as she was off the ward, the unexplained deaths stopped. The expert witnesses were clear that this was not normal. There was evidence of outright poisoning in two cases. HCPs do kill patients - it does happen. If she was a male non-white nurse in his 50s would we be having the same debate? She clearly had a combination of absence of empathy and extreme self-importance that had deadly results, whether it was for generating drama, teaching someone a lesson or some other thing she had cooked up in her head. Maybe she saw the families be happy, celebrating a milestone and she wanted to show them that things could change. Who knows. She was normal enough to get away with it for a long time.

i just feel like perhaps there’s a crossover with PD or a type of concealed conduct disorder leading to urges to harm but disassociating from that it’s just reading some of the accounts and hearing her evidence about ‘not remembering’ it feels like there could be a lot more to her mental state than anyone realises

Disassociation and seeming emotionless (freeze response) might also be very understandable trauma reactions to being arrested and on trial for murder. She has been diagnosed with PTSD and presents very much like many with PTSD present.

The fact that she has PTSD doesn’t mean she’s innocent. She’s probably grown up very entitled and told that she was special etc. She did these things because she thought she could get away with them. She didn’t get away with them and I’m sure the process was all very traumatic for her. That doesn’t mean she is not guilty of the crimes.

Yes - this is also correct . I just feel very unsure about the whole thing. Literally 50/50. It just doesn’t seem like the evidence was enough and the trial was so one sided and really just odd with her defence ?

Thats like wanting to understand why peedos fancy kids? To understand that level of Evil, you'd have to be pretty evil yourself?

I'm very happy in not understanding. If I did understand, I'd be a monster like her