Page 14 | Lucy Letby ( To understand)

PassingStranger · 2024-07-02T19:11:51+00:00

What made her kill these babies. Been in the news again today. It's hard to understand? Presume as she is in prison and not a hospital, she is not mentally ill? Will anyone try to find out, I guess if people don't admit they are guilty it's hard too. Instead of people saying give me 5 mins in a cell with her, surely it's better to stop this happening or maybe it's not possible? Why does she want to be one of the most hated women in the universe and not give a shit about the babies families and even her own parents? So much better to be known for doing something nice and have people like you? AIBU to wonder why she took this road in life?

Tunnocksandtablet · 03/07/2024 12:06

Sohardtoknow · 03/07/2024 11:59

I see occams razor mentioned a lot on mumsnet . Considering that and looking at the fact this unit was investigated, understaffed, taking babies that it wasnt meant to I feel that is the obvious problem and not perhaps a lone psychopath/person with severe conduct disorder who has carefully cultivated such a non threatening persona.

Were ALL the excess deaths investigated or did they just disregard any where she wasn’t there ?

A clusterfuck situation? A perfect storm, things hanging on by thread, a mixture of patchy competancy, overstretched service, shitty management, ineffective communication, embedded hierachies leading to the sorts of consequences we’ve seen in midwifery teams and bad things start to happen. Then they get way worse. Perfect place for a bad actor to become emboldened.

icelolly12 · 03/07/2024 12:06

I'm not convinced she is guilty

buffyajp · 03/07/2024 12:06

Namechanger789 · 03/07/2024 11:02

This. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

However more and more people seem to be cottoning on to it, so we can but hope that an appeal is allowed in time.

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They really aren’t. It’s just conspiracy theorists like yourself are becoming more vocal and ridiculous in your assertions because you think a pretty blonde white girl can’t possibly have committed these crimes. There is absolutely no chance she will be getting a successful appeal so I suggest you deal with that. Anyone saying the evidence is weak has clearly not understood or listened to all the evidence that was laid out in court and are basing in on snapshots. Two separate juries have convicted her now but some mumsnet detectives think they know better. I hope she never sees the light of day again.

x2boys · 03/07/2024 12:07

Sohardtoknow · 03/07/2024 12:01

So many comments about the babies being ‘healthy’ and ‘expected to go home’ but sadly premature babies are notorious for quick changes in their condition and it seems misleading language as no healthy baby would be admitted to NICU or SCBU?

Clearly they were babies that needed a lot of intensive nursing ,and were not "healthy" but surely staff would know or have a good idea which of these babies were becoming stronger and expected to recover ?

Sohardtoknow · 03/07/2024 12:10

x2boys · 03/07/2024 12:07

Clearly they were babies that needed a lot of intensive nursing ,and were not "healthy" but surely staff would know or have a good idea which of these babies were becoming stronger and expected to recover ?

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Possibly but in the experience I had with NICU we saw so many steps forward then huge steps back and got told repeatedly and heard others told the same that premature babies are so unpredictable.

Liripipe · 03/07/2024 12:10

Namechanger789 · 03/07/2024 11:02

This. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

However more and more people seem to be cottoning on to it, so we can but hope that an appeal is allowed in time.

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I gather the only option left open to LL's legal team now is to go to the Criminal Cases Review Commission which investigates potential miscarriages of justice, as she's had two requests for leave to appeal rejected?

MammaTo · 03/07/2024 12:15

What an odd post and an even stranger reply.

Cabincrew1 · 03/07/2024 12:16

tuvamoodyson · 03/07/2024 07:54

I think she meant LL….not nurses in general! I’m confused as to why you think they meant ‘all nurses?’

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Well other than being a monstrous baby killer she was clearly successful, she had a high pressure high responsibility job as a nurse. I also read she had lots of friends and owned her own house as well as having loving parents.

It’s hard to see what went wrong with this seemingly normal woman, but I guess psychologically is not easy to understand.

icelolly12 · 03/07/2024 12:19

The whole case reminds me a bit of the Amanda Knox case. People jump on small things like her not reacting in the "normal" way that a woman should. Maybe not crying enough or whatever, and then jump to blame her based on that rather than basing it on solid evidence.

Her being female then works against her, as women should have a protective and nurturing nature in societies eyes. Then a witch hunt ensues.

Namechanger789 · 03/07/2024 12:20

buffyajp · 03/07/2024 12:06

They really aren’t. It’s just conspiracy theorists like yourself are becoming more vocal and ridiculous in your assertions because you think a pretty blonde white girl can’t possibly have committed these crimes. There is absolutely no chance she will be getting a successful appeal so I suggest you deal with that. Anyone saying the evidence is weak has clearly not understood or listened to all the evidence that was laid out in court and are basing in on snapshots. Two separate juries have convicted her now but some mumsnet detectives think they know better. I hope she never sees the light of day again.

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I'm not engaging with anyone who finds critical thinking this challenging, which clearly you do.

Be sure to remember all us "conspiracy theorists" when she's eventually proven innocent and released.

Sohardtoknow · 03/07/2024 12:22

I’ve had first hand experience of how the nhs will try to cover things up and blame others if they can. I doubt she will ever get to have an appeal. If she is innocent I feel sorry for her and sorry for the poor parents because an answer is only healing if it’s the true answer, they’ve been given someone to direct blame at but it would be so cruel if that was not actually the case as they need the truth and closure

VibeOnWithMyGalPals · 03/07/2024 12:26

I think it was a mixture of her being in a position of power and being able to do so - “playing god”, and enjoying the drama and devastation she was causing the parents, hence searching for them on Facebook.

I wonder would she have done the same to all vulnerable people in her care - elderly, very ill patients, etc? Probably.

I would love to know her history. What was she like as a child? Did she show empathy?

SerafinasGoose · 03/07/2024 12:28

icelolly12 · 03/07/2024 12:19

The whole case reminds me a bit of the Amanda Knox case. People jump on small things like her not reacting in the "normal" way that a woman should. Maybe not crying enough or whatever, and then jump to blame her based on that rather than basing it on solid evidence.

Her being female then works against her, as women should have a protective and nurturing nature in societies eyes. Then a witch hunt ensues.

Edited

There's a clear difference between those two cases.

The evidence clearly showed Knox had been nowhere near the murder scene of Meredith Kercher when it happened. All evidence pointed to Rudy Guede, the actual murderer, whose DNA was found all over the scene, and on and inside the victim. Knox's behaviour might have been very seen as inappropriate in the circumstances: it did not make her a killer. The evidence (not least a botched, incompetent investigation) exonerated her.

The opposite was the case with Letby. There was a mountain of evidence against her which added up to a very compelling picture of guilt.

Appearances in her case worked in her favour. Even now there's a conviction with some people that the Vanilla Killer couldn't possibility be responsible for the hideous crimes of which she's been convicted. She just looks too ... benign.

Whereas despite her sweet looks, 'Foxy' Knoxy's unfortunate femme fatale image had a whole lot of bayers for blood convinced that this innocent woman was guilty.

The two cases are in no way even comparable.

Feelsodrained · 03/07/2024 12:28

Those who think she’s innocent - how do you explain the babies that were poisoned with insulin?

ILoveToCleanSaidNooneEver · 03/07/2024 12:30

altmember · 03/07/2024 04:03

I'm not talking about before they've been found out. After capture/conviction, there's usually loads of clues discovered in their past. Not necessarily that screams serial killer, but scars on their character or personality. Shipman's only clue was that he had a record for forging prescriptions for his own drug addictions. The others have loads of clues and markers in their past that were later discovered.

Sutcliffe's father was a right orrible bastard by all accounts. Peter married a paranoid schizophrenic when she was 16 and he 28, who apparently domineered him. And she stayed married to him for over a decade after his conviction, bit weird? After his arrest he quickly confessed to his crimes and said that God told him to do it.

I'm pretty sure Fred West was well known as a nasty piece of work, had a history of sexually assaulting girls as a teenager and even got his 13 year old sister pregnant (when he was 19), for which he was charged but case collapsed when she refused to give evidence against him. Also, pretty terrible parenting - he claims he was sexually abused by his mother as a child, engaged in bestiality as a young teenager and thought that incest was normal because he'd witnessed his dad raping his sisters. He was also rather low intelligence and illiterate and dressed like a tramp. A known wife beater and pimped his wives. Another girlfriend, pregnant at 18 vanished without trace (later found to be murdered by him).

Rose was 15 when she got together with Fred and she had allegedly been sexually assaulted by her own father a child. It was known that Fred pimped her out too, still age 15. Fred also gave detailed confession after being arrested.

By contrast there appears to be absolutely nothing abnormal in LL's life that provides any explanation. Early days yet, but even with hindsight, there appear to be no clues to her motive, or state of mind. And no confession, or hint of admission of guilt. Maybe something will come out that begins to explain why she did it, but so far it's all pure speculation and conjecture.

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Ah apologies @altmember. I see what you mean.

icelolly12 · 03/07/2024 12:34

The opposite was the case with Letby. There was a mountain of evidence against her which added up to a very compelling picture of guilt.

I listened to the podcasts during the trial and kept up to date with the case. I didn't hear that so called 'mountain of evidence' that was enough to convince me it was her beyond reasonable doubt.

A lot of emphasis is placed on her looks and her looking "innocent" which the drives a further hatred for such a sweet person being responsible for the deaths of babies. I think she's been made a scapegoat for failings by senior doctors and the system as a whole.

Tinylittleunicorn · 03/07/2024 12:34

Sohardtoknow · 03/07/2024 12:22

I’ve had first hand experience of how the nhs will try to cover things up and blame others if they can. I doubt she will ever get to have an appeal. If she is innocent I feel sorry for her and sorry for the poor parents because an answer is only healing if it’s the true answer, they’ve been given someone to direct blame at but it would be so cruel if that was not actually the case as they need the truth and closure

But this doesn't make any sense. LL was protected and defended for months/years by NHS management who went so far as to compel those who were concerned about her involvement in the deaths, to apologise to her. It was the police investigation, by a police force completely unconnected to the NHS Trust in question, that reached the conclusion that there were sufficient grounds to charge her with murder.

So, who are the conspirators scapegoating LL to cover up for the NHS here? The NHS management that didn't want to hear she had anything to do with the deaths and defended her? The police force with no connection to aforementioned NHS Trust? I genuinely can't follow this particular line of thought.

Genuinely, did the police investigate, come to the conclusion the evidence pointed to NHS Trust failings, and then decide "oh no, we, the police, love the NHS too much we'll have to pin this on an individual member of staff!" Or like, are the ward management team meant to at some point have suddenly switched, all this time defending and standing up for LL and then suddenly changing their minds and framing her, somehow successfully duping the police? Even though measures to downgrade the unit had already occurred that point, and their having defended LL for such an extended period actually reflects very poorly on them in the context of her then being a convicted murderer?

Biggleslefae · 03/07/2024 12:36

TheaBrandt · 03/07/2024 08:38

An old friend of the family spent many hours dog walking with a serial killer and had no idea.

Jeez! I'm thinking the serial killer was scoping out places to hide bodies . . . because they are always found by dog walkers aren't they🥴

icelolly12 · 03/07/2024 12:39

Tinylittleunicorn · 03/07/2024 12:34

But this doesn't make any sense. LL was protected and defended for months/years by NHS management who went so far as to compel those who were concerned about her involvement in the deaths, to apologise to her. It was the police investigation, by a police force completely unconnected to the NHS Trust in question, that reached the conclusion that there were sufficient grounds to charge her with murder.

So, who are the conspirators scapegoating LL to cover up for the NHS here? The NHS management that didn't want to hear she had anything to do with the deaths and defended her? The police force with no connection to aforementioned NHS Trust? I genuinely can't follow this particular line of thought.

Genuinely, did the police investigate, come to the conclusion the evidence pointed to NHS Trust failings, and then decide "oh no, we, the police, love the NHS too much we'll have to pin this on an individual member of staff!" Or like, are the ward management team meant to at some point have suddenly switched, all this time defending and standing up for LL and then suddenly changing their minds and framing her, somehow successfully duping the police? Even though measures to downgrade the unit had already occurred that point, and their having defended LL for such an extended period actually reflects very poorly on them in the context of her then being a convicted murderer?

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There are certain senior consultants who vilified Lucy. Whether rightly or to protect other failings I don't know but I haven't been convinced of Lucy Letby's guilt from the evidence (or lack of)

JustEatTheOneInTheBallPit · 03/07/2024 12:41

Tunnocksandtablet · 02/07/2024 21:23

This is going to sound cruel but it’s not meant to be, it’s a way to describe how I’m trying to understand. I have a family member, she’s young, she has never really had friends, at school she did OK, went to university but was back home at 5 for supper every night, no social life there, she has a respectable job but it’s dull, she’s actually quite dull and always has been. Has never been interested in much, could never participate in a conversation that wasn’t about herself.

She has a desperate DESPERATE need to be important, exciting, the most interesting, most deserving of attention in the room. She is an illness faker, that’s blunt but there it is. It started in her mid teens and has escalated as she’s moved into adulthood. It’s exhausting and upsetting to see, she’s not well in herself but her dramatic life and awful need for total attention is played out through the illnesses and disabilities she presents. Visits to hospitals, battles with doctors who will not acknowledge her ‘lived experience’, therapy animals, elaborate and visible medical equipment for leaving the house, special food, all of that.

I could maybe understand Lucy Letby by imagining if my family member turned these strategies to get what she needs outwards rather than on herself.

I know someone like this too and she has a teenage daughter who has developed the same issues. Both of them are routinely ill... always very, very ill, no matter how mild the virus or symptoms. Recently one of them took themselves off to A&E with Covid (and when I say recently, I mean 2.5 weeks ago). The hospital did not admit them but they still told everyone that would listen that they "had been in hospital with Covid".

I'm afraid I too see how dangerous these behaviours could / can be if inflicted on another.

The teenage girl actually spent much of her childhood in hospital with mysterious and undiagnosable conditions and I often wondered if the mother was responsible in some physically way (not just psychological) - but with zero proof, I just sound mean and speculative.

Tinylittleunicorn · 03/07/2024 12:44

icelolly12 · 03/07/2024 12:39

There are certain senior consultants who vilified Lucy. Whether rightly or to protect other failings I don't know but I haven't been convinced of Lucy Letby's guilt from the evidence (or lack of)

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Consultants so powerful they successfully influenced the police, CPS and two juries to wrongly reach the conclusion that LL is guilty of murder, but the same consultants who were forced to apologise to her in fear of their jobs? Make that make sense to me.

Sohardtoknow · 03/07/2024 12:47

Tinylittleunicorn · 03/07/2024 12:34

But this doesn't make any sense. LL was protected and defended for months/years by NHS management who went so far as to compel those who were concerned about her involvement in the deaths, to apologise to her. It was the police investigation, by a police force completely unconnected to the NHS Trust in question, that reached the conclusion that there were sufficient grounds to charge her with murder.

So, who are the conspirators scapegoating LL to cover up for the NHS here? The NHS management that didn't want to hear she had anything to do with the deaths and defended her? The police force with no connection to aforementioned NHS Trust? I genuinely can't follow this particular line of thought.

Genuinely, did the police investigate, come to the conclusion the evidence pointed to NHS Trust failings, and then decide "oh no, we, the police, love the NHS too much we'll have to pin this on an individual member of staff!" Or like, are the ward management team meant to at some point have suddenly switched, all this time defending and standing up for LL and then suddenly changing their minds and framing her, somehow successfully duping the police? Even though measures to downgrade the unit had already occurred that point, and their having defended LL for such an extended period actually reflects very poorly on them in the context of her then being a convicted murderer?

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Management are very separate to clinical staff though - the management acted one way and consultants clearly had opposing views

JennyBeanR · 03/07/2024 12:48

Feelsodrained · 03/07/2024 12:28

Those who think she’s innocent - how do you explain the babies that were poisoned with insulin?

They can't or won't. If she wasn't attractive, young, smiley, these people would not be tying themselves in knots to defend her. I seriously hope the poor parents don't come across this nonsense.

Twototwo15 · 03/07/2024 12:48

SerafinasGoose · 03/07/2024 12:28

There's a clear difference between those two cases.

The evidence clearly showed Knox had been nowhere near the murder scene of Meredith Kercher when it happened. All evidence pointed to Rudy Guede, the actual murderer, whose DNA was found all over the scene, and on and inside the victim. Knox's behaviour might have been very seen as inappropriate in the circumstances: it did not make her a killer. The evidence (not least a botched, incompetent investigation) exonerated her.

The opposite was the case with Letby. There was a mountain of evidence against her which added up to a very compelling picture of guilt.

Appearances in her case worked in her favour. Even now there's a conviction with some people that the Vanilla Killer couldn't possibility be responsible for the hideous crimes of which she's been convicted. She just looks too ... benign.

Whereas despite her sweet looks, 'Foxy' Knoxy's unfortunate femme fatale image had a whole lot of bayers for blood convinced that this innocent woman was guilty.

The two cases are in no way even comparable.

Show quote history

They are comparable in as much as to point out that the only reason people aren’t convinced of LL’s guilt is not only that she’s a supposedly pretty, white woman. If it was, everyone would have been convinced of Amanda Knox’s innocence from the start.
I’m sick of people deciding they know what other people think based on nothing. Anyone I have come across that isn’t convinced of her guilt gives reasons of lack of solid evidence, not “but she doesn’t look like a killer”.

Tunnocksandtablet · 03/07/2024 12:48

@JustEatTheOneInTheBallPit You have my sympathy, it’s a hard one to watch from the sidelines. Like mine your example is harming themselves and not others, but I worry where it could end for her or even just the impact it’s having on her now. How would we deal with the ‘I should’ve done something’ guilt? It’s always not yet, there isn’t enough to act on, maybe I’m wrong, the consequences of doing something could make things worse, I don’t even know what I could do or say etc.