To be angry about the new "free" nursery hours

[pimlicopubber]

We're not eligible for the new "free" hours starting at 9 months, because my husband is lucky enough to be earning over 100k. However, I earn far from that, so 2 sets of nursery fees are more than my salary. We live in London with 2 small children.

We are comfortable, but don't splash out, we shop at Aldi and don't own a car. Our salaries basically evaporate after paying rent and nursery fees, yet the government is treating us like we are the Kardashians when it comes to the marginal tax rate.

As a result of the "free" hours that don't actually cover nursery costs, our nursery increased fees for everyone, because they need to cross-subsidize the free hours. Also, the ratio of caregivers dropped from 1:4 to 1:5 and we can't move to a slightly cheaper nursery further away, because they have incredibly long waiting lists due to the huge demand. I'm thinking of quitting work, even though it will be damaging to my career in the long term.

AIBU to be disappointed and angry that a policy that was supposed to motivate people to work has an opposite effect for our family?

Wow, scrolling through the whole thread FINALLY someone makes the point about single parents. Yes of course it's ridiculously unfair that it's not done on household income, maybe recognising and highlighting the most obvious, the worst affected victims of this injustice, would be a good idea if we want the government to change it? For couples where one couples earn more, it's really annoying. For a single parent who earns more, it's either an incredibly severe financial penalty of tens of thousands of pounds she (usually the mother) has to shoulder alone, or the end of her career if she has two young kidsb(at least temporarily)

This!^

OP, childcare is shit, and it should be more affordable as it's shitty for women in particular. BUT, come on. You have a household income of presumably well over 100k. You do realise that the average household income in the UK is 32k? AND that is the AVERAGE. Working single mums, for example, may well earn 20k, for example. Even in London, you cannot seriously plead poverty.

Do you go on holidays? Do you buy clothes? Do you save? Do you HAVE savings? Is the only reason you don't have a car because you live in London, where it isn't needed? Do your children share a room? Do you have spare bedrooms/bathrooms? Do you ever go out for meals? Day trips? Nights out? Do you have a computer? Decent mobile phones and contracts? Do your kids get new toys? If you answered yes to any of these questions then, sorry, but you don't get to plead poverty!

My goodness. You do realise that many, many families are working poor? People need to work, but their wage barely covers their food and rent. Childcare is more than their rent, but if they can't get childcare, they can't work.

I've personally been in this situation. I've been unable to buy essentials like clothes and food even while working. I haven't been on holiday in years. My computer is 8 years old and ready to kick the bucket any day. My kid has charity shop clothes, and even then sometimes I can't afford it.

I actually have a fairly good job - I have a degree and a postgraduate qualification, and I am in a promoted post in my field. But I have a chronically ill spouse and a child. It doesn't cover us all. I work two jobs. I work really, really hard. I've been successful. I've been resilient. Sometimes, life just throws you a hand, though. Free places are there for people like me, as they should be, so that my family don't need to be on welfare.

So, yes, your post sounds whiny and a bit entitled. If you go on holidays then don't go on holidays until your kids are old enough for school (join the no-holiday club, but at least you'll get to go on them someday). If they don't share a room then downsize so they do (again, join the club, but at least you'll be able to upsize again one day). Do you go out for the occasional meal/day trip/night out? Yes? Well, join the 'going without club'. Do your kids get new toys? Well, join the shitty 'you've got dusty, semi-broken second-hand gifts' club.

Seriously, stop moaning. Yes, childcare is SHITTY, but your life and income is fine. Do what everyone else has to do and sacrifice for a few years. Suck it up.

Just out of interest, which part of London is this? "The average costs in London is within the range 1.2-1.6k."
Our nursery is over 100 GBP per day and it's a normal nursery, by far not the most expensive in our area. The absolutely cheapest nursery in our area is 80 GBP per day, we are on the waiting list, but the chance of getting 2 places there is very low. Luckily, our nursery has a term time only option which lowers the bill somewhat, we use up all of our annual leaves to cover the holidays, but parents of school aged children already do that, so at least we get used to it early.

Yes but in the US you all do your own Tax returns don't you, so I guess you can link household income more easily.

In the UK Tax is done by the employer directly to HMRI so individuals don't get linked together at all. I don't know if you can do this if you do a Tax return but not many people here in the UK need to do tax returns so having never done one myself I wouldn't know. The whole tax and benefit system are two completely different government departments who don't really talk to each other so it's not linked and there is currently no way of linking MrsMigGril with Mr MigGril within our systems even though we are married and living at the same address. Really odd I know, but this is what has led ot this one income knife edge benefit system, as it was the easiest and cost effective way to introduce it (not the most sensible).
Martin Lewis money saving has been camping for some time to get the government to change it to household income. And they actually decided at lest for child benefit, that they would bring this in. But this will require time and effort and a change to the government computer systems in order to make it happen. In reality it'll be at lest a couple of years.

So why doesn't he? Not everyone can increase their salary but most people earning over 100k could quite easily find a lower paid job if they think it's so much better. But there's obviously a reason why they don't, because it isn't better.

Nursery fees only last for a few years, benefits change. Over a lifetime higher earners will be much better off.

I'm in zone 6 and paying £1825 per month for full time. Will save a grand total of c.£90 per month when I get the "free hours".

Worth pointing out, it isn't a binary choice between full time job over 100k or changing to a lower paid job. People can and do stay in the same role and simply work fewer hours. It happens.

Not OP but ours have gone up twice since September, both £150 each time, so up by £300 a month.

@Sickofatrocity yes it IS a lot of money and they will also have a +£30k tax /NI bill.

They aren’t receiving child benefit (£1330/year), they can’t claim tax free childcare (up to £2000/year) and don’t qualify for funded hours which is worth £thousands a year.

They now actually have to pay more for their childcare. Not because they are using it differently or getting a better service, but because the government are idiots.

IMO the OP is within her rights to be annoyed at a crappy broken system (this one is amazingly broken before it’s even begun!!). Please forget about the race to the bottom, the only ones who win in that race are those in government and don’t forget they supposed to be working for US-we pay for them!!!

A friend runs a small nursery 16 children under school age. She won't entertain free school hours because the system is long winded getting the money refunded, it would put everyone out of work.

It's worse now than it was 40 years ago.

We got an email our nursery is upping fees by 15% from September due to the 'free hours'. Means our bill actually increases a bit when we get the 'free hours'. It's ridiculous.

As expected, there are a lot of responses saying we're very well off (we are) and to suck it up (we do, thanks!).
Criticizing a bad government policy that disincentive people from working shouldn't be seen as moaning and it's sad it is. What I'm really moaning about is that the people who are taxed the most are being seen as "rich". A better description is "income rich asset poor".
BTW, we are renting a 2 bedroom apartment. Our rent just went up to 2500 GBP per month.

What form of the free hours only reduces it by £90 a month for you? We’ve recently had the 15 hours added since April and it has reduced the amount we pay by £257 a month exactly.

Well if she and her partner both earned 99k then they would fall within that threshold to receive the benefit. So it's not done on a family unit, because that would be 198k for a family unit. They clearly are not earning that from her post.

There are some serious flaws to the policy. Most women will be earning far under what their partner earns, and without the childcare costs partially subbed, there is financially no point to them working. So it does have negative effects on keeping women in the workplace and empowering them.

The 15 free hours.

Criticizing a bad government policy that disincentive people from working shouldn't be seen as moaning and it's sad it is.

This.

Your question was quite clearly about whether you were BU to dislike a policy that absolutely does disincentivise work in some cases. Not whether people thought you had lots of money. Policies that deter people from working are a shit idea regardless of what those people earn.

Bit high for a 2 bed. Why not move to a more affordable area.

They don't even need to do something so drastic - he can voluntarily put up to 60k a year into his pension. So up to warning £160k he'll still keep that money, and can also make himself earn £99,999 so they qualify for free childcare too. Plus getting a much higher pension.

Unless you're earning over £160k in one salary, you can still qualify for free childcare hours this way.

@MigGirl yes the downside is that more or less everyone has to do a tax return.

Employers do deduct the equivalent of PAYE from each person. On the joint tax return you record from your payslip the tax you each already paid, then you jointly either pay any extra tax or get a rebate.

Those numbers are astronomical. £100 a day for nursery?! No wonder why you can’t afford nursery fees! I do hope they are paying those nursery employees well and not pocketing it.

• and yes, here the help with childcare is done as money back on your tax return and not a completely separate benefit.

But I don't see why it couldn't be like that in the uk. Tax returns are sometimes used to redistribute wealth there too, right, just not for this specific thing?

YANBU. We're eligible and looking forward to the £150/m saving we'll have from September for our under 2 year old. It'll be handy as they put the price up by the same amount in one hit in preparation of the funding coming in.

Agree. We live in London and just one person with an income of over 100K doesn’t get you far. Our mortgage is huge and our nursery fees have shot up as a result of the ‘free hours’.

Annoys me more because everyone I know in London seems to have wealthy parents who have given ‘help’ with a house deposit. They get the free hours because they look poorer than us on paper but they’re really far, far richer.

We got given nothing for a house deposit and still have huge student loans to pay. I recognise we are still hugely fortunate (I’m from a poor region of the UK so really do get this) but cost of living is high round these parts and I’m angry our nursery fees have jumped.

I think people don’t realise how mental the cost of living is in London.

Rent: £2,500 (this is going to get a pretty ordinary flat)
Childcare at £100 a day for two: £4,000

That’s £6,500 before you’ve paid any household bills, travelled to work etc. That’s quite a bit more than the take home pay on £100k.

It’s the childcare cost that is particularly onerous - but of course, that is what we keep seeing posts complaining about. It’s the majority of people’s incomes and yet they’re still told they’re too high earning for help - while paying enormously high taxes.

You are lucky your child has a nursery space! There are long waiting lists here so the whole scheme is just that, a scheme. Sold a lie.