Anyone else wobbling about voting Labour?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

I desperately want to GTTO but the last few years have taught me that ‘any change’ isn’t always good and things can get worse, even if you think they can’t.

I’ve watched all the debates now and Starmer is so… wet. I don’t like him. The first thing he did when women’s rights were mentioned his first thought was men who ‘identify as women’ and how ‘marginalised’ they are. When asked about immigration he squirmed and squirmed before muttering about his role as DPP (who cares? We want to know what you plan to do NOW). When asked about his support for Corbyn he said ‘but I didn’t think we would actually win..’

There’s something about him which is making me very uncomfortable and I just have a bad feeling now about what would happen if he was leader.

Anyone else? If you’re not voting Tory or Labour, who are you voting for and why? I assumed I would vote Labour this time but my gut is suddenly screaming at me not to!

Of course this is Tommy Robinson’s narrative. Everything he stands for is linked to immigration. You can’t pull something an extremist says in support of his goal, to make comparisons with someone on here highlighting a specific issue. It’s what many Labour supporters do unfortunately. They dislike the fact that someone has a different opinion to them, and instead of using considered debate, they try to shut them down by throwing out irrelevant comparisons (usually referring to race, as that’s what can be emotive to many people). It’s the go-to for many left voting people when they want to shut debate down. It used to work, but fortunately it doesn’t so much now.

I didn't live through it, but it doesn't sound easier than now.

We have a lot of shit at the moment. But there isn't rubbish piling in the streets and bodies not being buried. The mortgage rates aren't in double figures.

Every generation has their own hard things to deal with. They're just different. But saying it was "easier" then or is "easier" now is just dismissing the shit each time was dealing with.

I think we can expect increases there certainly. I think there is potential in other areas where assets, rather than income can be taxed.

Mortgages even under the inflation in the 70s were more affordable than now plus there was more housing to go round. This has been proven time and time and time again.

Yes this is what I expect. Plus some good news on the economic situation this morning. So a positive start for a new PM

We had rampant Covid. It was new and unknown territory. We had to learn as we went along. Looking back now, it seemed over reaction to put as many rules in place, but we were largely following the experts - scientists and global health specialists. As they say, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and with the info we have now, maybe such stringent rules wouldn’t have been implemented. Whilst I’m no Tory supporter, I can still see that what happened during the Covid days were not entirely the fault of the government.

You’re absolutely right. My perspective is obviously skewed because 50 years ago I didn’t have a pot to piss in and my financial position is different now. The 70s were awful and so are the 2020s in different ways.

My point was that these things are cyclical. I’m hopeful that we’re at the bottom of the cycle now and things are about to change for the better. I refuse to believe that I have to spend my last years in this cesspit.

The winter of discontent was Labour. Which is why looking back doesn’t help much and that includes Blair, we’re in a different place globally and domestically.

I think there may be issues if the EU and US go right and we are one of the few to go the opposite way

I’ve seen a lot of depressing stuff re U.K. on here over last few years so it’s quite good if people feel buoyed

However it looks like it could be problematic in the global context

And my experience in the past has been that usually it’s the other way round - Labour have ground us to chaos, then the Tories come in and rescued us. Now it’s the reverse, in that the Tories have made things for us intolerable, and Labour are stepping in, which doesn’t usually happen, so people are obviously worrying about how much worse this could get once they win next week. I’m just thinking things could get a whole lot worse, if that’s even possible.

The winter of discontent was a three month period right at the end of the decade. We had ten years of inept governments of both colours and more general elections than you could shake a stick at - two in one year at one point. Politics was incredibly volatile. Both Thatcher and Blair provided long periods of very welcome calm and stability.

Nothing yet.. But the "trans rights" social contagion didn't begin 14 years ago. As I said, when the Equality Act was written, it was referring to biological sex. It's only been recently that the crazy deniers of reality are trying to argue something different.

They have however said that they will clarify it.

No, Labour supporters can deal with people have differences of opinion, quite easily.

The example is pretty accurate, he doesn't care about the rights of women and girls really, neither do those here saying they will vote Tory to protect the rights of women and girls. The Tories have enacted policies that have had a massively disproportionate impact on millions of women and girls, yet you choose to ignore that and focus on this issue which has a very small impact on a very small number of people.

The comparison is entirely relevant because like Tommy Robinson you are pretending to advocate for something as it makes an appeal to emotion.

There is also no shutting down of debate, something the right like to claim often but the reason you have tried strawman your way out of this argument rather than address what I have said is because you know it to be true.

I've just gone back and read the thread. It's quite hostile in here because those of us at the bottom are really fucking struggling, which makes us a bit scrappy, I think, because it's not really an option for us.

But I can also understand why, if you've never experienced a Labour govt as an adult, you wouldn't really see the benefit of getting Labour in. I also understand how you can develop the mentality that they're all the same and things never seem to get any better. The last god knows how many years (I stopped counting after the last election and sank into a deep depression tbh) have been bleak, to understate the situation somewhat.

I think the first thing to tackle here is what you think is some kind of destiny. It isn't. It's intentional choice made by a group of people who sold us a lie about fiscal responsibility so they could siphon off cash to pay their buddies in private contracts. Now, if this is an intentional decision, that decision can be made differently. Especially if the decision is in the hands of people whose priority is not making the rich richer.

Labour's primary problem is that they know they have to pledge in the interests of the young because the older gens will vote Tory. And they thing 'the young' want identity politics and gender woo. It's a spectacular misstep and it may cost them (and the poorer amongst us) dearly, so I do hope they learn from it, but that's another story for another day. Starmer is being tepid because he knows how quickly he can lose this. He watched Corbyn lose it with much stronger policies, so he's probably thinking it's better to play it safe. In a bid to seem like the more moderate party, he's offered us none of what we want and a whole lot of extremism few actually asked for. It's a bizarre blend.

I will never forgive Labour for the way they've treated women in the party, and in particular, the way Starmer has left Rosie to the wolves. We will always remember. But we can fight back much stronger with full bellies, Mary.

Live to fight another day, innit.

The government handled somethings well (vaccination rollout, furlough), were seen to be indecisive on some issues (lockdowns), made a few bad decisions (Eat Out To Help Out), and then massively screwed the pooch on other issues (Track and Trace, PPE procurement, Nightingale hospitals, partygate).

The unavoidable costs of Covid were high, but the avoidable costs as a result of mistakes are into the billions. Many of these mistakes were as a result of deciding not to go with the established experts and to instead funnel spending towards untried and unproven friends of the Tories through the VIP procurement lane. The end result was immense wastage of public funds on unsuitable items and equipment.

The final judgement on the Covid response is years away still, as the Covid Enquiry rumbles on. But one thing looks fairly clear, the governments response to Covid cannot be taken as evidence of sound management of the public finances. Some appalling decisions were made, that were pointed out at the time.

Plenty ego and venality in poltics too! Plus power corrupts. At best, politics is by necessity taking a broad view which can lead to losing sight of human details.

My view is it's too much for any one person or party to lead a country.

I'd suggest PR but Scotgov shows the flaws in that.

Agree with all of that, but note Scotgov handled covid just as badly, but painted a different face on it.

I'm intrigued by the suggestion on this thread that pessimism correlates with leaning right, and optimism with leaning left. Both approaches have drawbacks, of course.

@ShinShinyandnew1 My bad - my mistake. Victoria was a solicitor. That's how she met Keir. She left the legal world to work as an occupational therapist. Thank you for respectfully correcting my mistake

Power corrupts for sure and I definitely think ego plays a role but I do think the vast majority of politicians aren't bad people and do want to do the right thing. The problem is that there is often no universally agreed 'right thing' and there are so many issues where the interests of different groups needs to be balanced. I also think entitlement in this country is through the roof so everyone (rich, poor and those in-between) can't stand the idea that things can get worse and will not always get better. History has taught us that these things tend to be cyclical yet we seem shocked and desperate to blame others when bad times inevitably follow the good.

I didn’t say I had. I was talking about change in general, just none of it ever seems to make a difference and tbh I wonder if the country is in decline for reasons the government isn’t even in control of. And we’re just destined to go slowly downhill for a long time yet.

Sadly I think so (not in a slit my throat way, more in a switch off from it all, enjoy the little things in life kind of way). In 2006 when Labour left office, the population of the UK was nearly 61 million, it is now nearly 68 million and of those, many (including a significant amount of young people who traditionally we would assume would be financially supporting old people) are financially inactive, in fact they are actually needing the financial support themselves. No party has the answer to this. In fact all seem to suggest that disability payments will be rationed which will go down like a cup of cold sick on MN.

Whoever wins is going to hugely struggle to change things. IMHO.

That is interesting.

I am right-leaning and definitely a natural pessimist (though I think research has shown that pessimists are actually more realistic than optimists!).

I am sadly of the view that world events (wars, pandemics, population increase, climate change to name, but a few) have a much bigger impact on UK society than what can be easily managed by a national political party. I am pretty sceptical as to how much things will improve under a different Government.

This, I'm afraid.

I am sadly of the view that world events (wars, pandemics, population increase, climate change to name, but a few) have a much bigger impact on UK society than what can be easily managed by a political party. I am pretty sceptical as to how much things will improve under a different Government.

Exactly. I think anyone who thinks otherwise is naive tbh.

I agree that both have drawbacks.

I imagine if the two sides were houses, the right would be a house that was old fashioned and out of style. It would be missing the modern gadgets that make life easier and will not have been redecorated for decades. In the Rightmove listing it would say 'in need of some modernisation' or 'perfect for an investor'.

The left's house would be completely modernised and full embrace all new technology. They will have removed all the original features though to fit with current trends without much thought to what they were throwing away.

Clearly most people would agree that ideally we would like a mix of both approaches and this is why centrists typically do well in this country.

Great minds!

I think most Mnetters know how bad the Tories are for women and the UK in general. That doesn't stop shills, foreign trolls, bots and dyed in the wool Tory faithful starting disingenuous threads that end with so I'll have to hold my nose and vote Conservative.

They've severely damaged our faith in democracy which is why you get a lot of "they're all the same" so spoil ballots, vote Reform etc. but most people are smart enough to know that the last thing British women need is another Tory government.

A vote for the Tories is an anti-woman vote and an anti-UK vote.