To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

Many schools have land, buildings etc that can be sold or rented or re-purposed.

Captains If these schools are to be turned into state schools, how will the government afford to buy these substantial properties?Or do you think the government should just seize all private schools’ assets?
Is seizing private property a good idea? Maybe you think it is.

There are frightening implications to these lines of reasoning but some people are so blinded by what they perceive as a scratch of their jealousy itch that they aren’t seeing the bigger context.

Ohhh some people on here really do think they are all that.... the School can absorb the VAT hike by lowering the fees! Doesn't take a genius does it to work that out?. My lord take your insults and get back under your soap box. Absolutely disgraceful the way some people behave on here. Do you have shares in a private school or something? Mind you makes sense you don't understand it who ever heard of lowering the price of anything when your a conservative...

They can lower fees by firing teachers, as that is where the vast majority of costs lie.

Most private schools don’t turn a profit and aren’t sitting on a major endowment- fees more or less represent what it costs to provide schooling.

That's complete rubbish! Absolute twaddle. It doesn't cost the amount eye watering amount of money to educate state kids! I think you definitely have shares. The fees arnt the only thing coming through the door, then there's the large and Completely tax free donations for places! We maybe poor but what we are not is fools!

I wouldn't mind but I don't even agree with the damn tax. I think it's an unfair slap In the face for people who have done well in life, and yet you still get people like the poster above thinking they can come and stamp all over the little people, with their insults. Then they wonder why people like me vote Labour and not Conservative.... I'd like to vote for neither! It's about time we changed the first past the post rubbish dragging this country down!

I largely agree with you

But you do come across as bitter and crowing

So you’re expecting the extra handful of parents that will be forced to give up their school place to drive improvements where 93% of parents have apparently failed? When they had managed to make a meaningful change for their own children but had it ripped away.

I think your wishful thinking is bordering on delusion at this point.

Have you heard of taxes????
OMG

Yet another "you criticise 1 Labour policy therfore you must be a Tory". You really need start to use better insults.
VAT and fees are separate issues. A school has to legally pass on VAT, it can't absorb the cost. It could cut or freeze fees nut the only way of doing this is by cutting the thing that takes up 75% of cost ie teachers. So the main way schools have of cutting costs is to make teachers redundant.

Yes and we already pay them plus save the state 7-8K per year. Now they want another 20%.
There are huge inequalities waiting the state sector already including cost of housing within catchments of excellent state schools. No-one is trying to address those inequalities.

But it SHOULD cost the state that much per pupil. That's the point, education isn't properly funded. Nothing from Labour about increasing funding for state schools other than a policy that will bring in approx £0 net.
The state currently pays 7-8K per secondary pupil, in reality in order to cover all costs it should be 10K+ as a minimum.

Small private schools with lower than average fees can only cut these fees further by firing teachers. Many parents pay private school fees for small class sizes. Not all private schools have swimming pools and performing arts centres. Some are really quite basic but people pay for the smaller classes. I’ve said it before - it is these smaller schools that will close. The larger more expensive schools will barely flinch. Thus the gap of privilege grows wider still.

i think you probably would have benefited from a bit more being spent on your education.

Tax free donations for places? Have you any knowledge of private schools? Or are you just blindly parroting what Labour say?

My daughter goes to a very small independent that certainly isn’t raking in the profits. If you’d spend some time looking through independent school accounts you would know that they aren’t the only one. If the schools did reduce fees this would certainly mean redundancies and potentially closure for smaller institutions. There’s very little wiggle room in dd’s school running costs, particularly given the very old building they have to maintain.

However it would also mean a reduction in the VAT paid by parents, further reducing the already shaky projections and making this tax even more pointless. For that reason I’m on board with your well thought out plan.

@twistyizzy ,

‘75% of a school's expenditure is teachers wages and most private schools don't run on huge surplus so the only thing to really cut is teachers and no-one wants that.
Legally schools have to pass on the full 20% of VAT but they could choose to reduce fees, or not put fees up. Like I said though this then impacts on staffing etc.
Labour are lying when they say schools don't have to pass the full amount on. They are also being incredibly disingenuous about the whole thing considering it is currently most likely illegal.’

You really believe that they can’t cut costs despite being about 3x as expensive as state.

The 75% being teachers is somewhat disingenuous, as the SLT also come under that. Most SLTs are super bloated with Directors of Diversity, Directors of Creativity etc, all on £80k ++. In addition, part of the private school offering is to give the teachers more non contact time (which I must say, I enjoyed). This did allow us to prepare lessons more carefully and to do more marking (which I definitely didn’t enjoy as, on the whole, it is a complete waste of time). So SLT could be scaled back and the teachers could be worked harder/smarter (cutting marking policies and maybe shortening the school day and making teachers teach more lessons during it).

Also, most 6th forms run at a loss and teach scarcity subjects like History of Art. They also allow weird and wonderful combinations of A level subjects, which requires more teaching time.

So, private schools have plenty of room to adapt. The big and in demand ones will just raise fees by 15% (the actual cost) but those struggling will have to change their offering to absorb some or all of the VAT. As many have said, they are businesses and will adapt to demand.

Again you are talking about a small number of exclusive public schools. None of the indi schools in this area have bloated SLT or Directors of Creativity etc.
Stop tarring them all with the same brush, it is an incredibly varied sector.

I think it is an excellent and little made point that the £7k at state is the woeful number, we all know that government funding for the free hours at nursery is too low and most nurseries ask for top ups to just stay open. Same at state schools.
This is NOT the fault of private schools.

I don’t have shared in private schools, and am not particularly fussed about whether private schools add VAT or not, but what gives me the rage - having worked in VAT for 35 years - is the absolute nonsense the government comes up with in order to try to claim it’s the school’s fault you’re fees gave give up so much and not the fact that they are forcing the school to charge you 20% extra on their fees.

And the school absorb the costs? Which private schools are these? Do you have any experience of private school finance? I would estimate maybe 15% of independent schools could absorb the VAT cost. Another 50% could absorb some of the VAT cost due to the VAT they’d be able to reclaim on capital projects, but a lot of schools (with rising costs) can absorb none of the VAT costs. For the government to claim that it’s the schools fault not theirs is utterly pathetic.

Putting VAT on school fees is a decision a government can take. But if it does so it needs to be brave enough to defend its decision in full and take criticism on the chin.

@twistyizzy ,

Stop talking about these small indies that you know, which can’t make any cuts.

Name them and I will have a look at the accounts (which are generally online) and make some productive suggestions because, frankly, I am sceptical.

As I said, if state schools can balance the books on £7k/pupil, there must be some room on double or more (nearly all around me are around £25k/annum).

I don't believe schools will stop offering incentives for poorer but talented pupils either. They do this for a reason: they want talent. It's always been a deal - we help you and you help us. If they stop offering bursaries/scholarships they'll be depriving themselves of talent and results.

But state schools can't balance the books can they? That's why playing fields have been sold off, support staff cut to the bone.
It is not the fault of private schools that state schools are woefully underfunded. Funding per pupil in state schools needs drastically improving but Labour aren't promising that.

We live in NE so the fees etc are generally lower than other parts of the country because there simply isn't the wealth of the South/SE. I don't need to give you the names, before choosing indi we looked at the finances of all the indi schools so I'm fully aware of reserves etc. A well run school will have contingencies but none of them around here are sitting on huge reserves.

I can name 3 independent schools in my local (ish) area which have closed or are closing this term in the last couple of years.

Conifers
Alton College
St Johns

State schools CANNOT balance the books on £7k!!!

Average day school fees pa are £18k.

HTH

@twistyizzy ,

‘But state schools can't balance the books can they? That's why playing fields have been sold off, support staff cut to the bone. ‘

By law, they have to! A state school cannot post a deficit budget and, if they repeatedly do so, they get put into special measures. There are no playing fields left to sell (and the capital account is a different fund pool anyway). Cutting staff is balancing the books.

‘I don't need to give you the names, before choosing indi we looked at the finances of all the indi schools so I'm fully aware of reserves etc. A well run school will have contingencies but none of them around here are sitting on huge reserves.’

As I thought…