To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

I think ‘Everyone’s Invited’ showed that private schools had a serious bullying (and sexual harassment) problem. The thing is that there is a limit as to how they cope with stuff that happens off site and online.

Since then, most have put it a lot of extra PSHE, and KCSIE has a whole module on child-on-child abuse. Private schools do have two massive advantages though: better teacher:pupil ratios, so staff can be on duty pretty much everywhere, and the ability to suspend and expel pupils with relative ease.

But bullying happens at every school, and the fact that a child has moved from state to private and escaped it doesn’t mean there isn’t another child who hasn’t moved in the other direction with the same positive result.

I don't know really, but I think you get virtuous as well as vicious circles. My DC's school is very popular amongst teachers as well as pupils/parents. As far as I am aware there are currently no vacant posts and according to my DC who have been pupil reps on selection panels quite a few times between them, there always seem to be plenty of candidates. And as they get plenty of applicants they can afford to be fairly fussy about who they employ. If you have a strong SLT and your full quota of good staff it must be a lot easier to deal with behavioural issues than if you are only just getting through every day. There's not a big turnover- retirement or teachers leaving to take on senior roles elsewhere mainly. I know a few of the staff personally and whilst of course nowhere is perfect they do seem to be largely happy at work.
And demographics do make a difference of course, it is futile to deny it. Our school is non selective and has quite a range of pupils but I think it has overall very engaged parents. Because of its location - lots of holiday homes and retired people close by - a high percentage of the pupils are from out of catchment so are from families who have actively chosen the school for its ethos. Parents therefore are,I think, likely to be more supportive of any discipline dished out to their children than average.
So I think it's a good school because it has good staff and engaged parents and it has good staff and engaged parents because it's a good school. Unfortunately I don't know how you create that situation in places it doesn't already exist though.

I agree.

A lot of the assumptions made by PE parents here are very naive.

Bullying happens, Private schools are not necessarily better at dealing with it, in some schools not at all good, and private school kids also have well off, pushy parents who have cultural capital like access to good lawyers who can tie a school up if they want to expel someone.

As well as bullying, there have been many threads of ps students being encouraged to leave due to poor exam results, thereby bringing down the percentage of students going to Oxford/Cambridge/other highly ranked universities.
My nephews who both won scholarships to an extremely prestigious private school were bullied for being Irish - continual IRA/bomb jokes, potatoes and empty booze bottles thrown at them (one causing a concussion), their belongings taken and burned and 'loyalists' blamed. Add to that much much passive aggression and snide comments in history class from the teachers. It was pretty horrific. Nobody was even suspended let alone expelled.

Does this happen in the private school you work in, Aladdinzane?

I have been a governor. I have been on the pta, I have protested, written to my mp.
the more people that care about their children’s education the more people will mobilise and the more chance government might do something

private school kids also have well off, pushy parents who have cultural capital like access to good lawyers who can tie a school up if they want to expel someone.

@Aladdinzane there was a case a few years ago when a parent did just that. However the school fought back and won so there is a precedent.
Do you remember this case? There was lots of publicity.

I've been in education a long time.

Seen this situation in both naice state schools and heard about it on many occasions in privates.

It is very naïve to think that bullying doesn't go on or is lower level because you are paying for your education.

This has just happened at a very naice private school in Surrey. Think super-posh, celebs etc and upwards of £8k per term.

A girl has been expelled in Year 9 for bullying. She bullied one so badly that the parents removed their daughter after she was spat on and needed teachers to sit with her during lunch to protect her from the other children who had aligned with the bully.

Many other girls want to leave now. The environment has become so toxic.

The bully's parents took the school to court. They are loaded and hired the most expensive laywers. The parents won. The school had to take they bully back.

Then the bully did something even worse a few weeks later. And now has been expelled with no possibility to return.

So yes it can happen and very rich parents can spend a huge sum of money fighting for their place, to the detriment of everyone involved. Private school can get rid of difficult children but it's not a easy as it once was because of parents' deep pockets and the never ending view these days of all individuals, it seems, that "I'm right and you're wrong".

Other parents are utterly fed up with the situation and have pressed for months for the girl to be expelled. But now at least the person has gone.

The difference is eventually the private school can get rid of the child. Eventually and with enough persistence. I imagine the fight experienced here was a first for this school. It's unusual but perhaps will become more the norm? I can't see the logic of the bully's parents myself.

At state school it's almost impossible to exclude difficult children and the bar to do so is much higher. Some of the stories I've read on here would be instant dismissal at a private school with no recourse to the law. So private schools do offer some advantage there still. For now.

And you think private school parents will have more success? Some have also done all of the above and realised that it achieves nothing which is why their kids are in private school. You may wish them back into that pointless bandwagon but I can’t see it. You would be far better trying to rally support among other parents in your local schools. Or are you suggesting that they don’t actually care about their children’s education in the same way as private school parents?

The more voices the better

And there’s 1000 more examples where the school didn’t bother fighting back…

Exactly, a lengthy court case with lawyers bills?

I thought all the privates were cut to the bone?

Then you thought wrong. Money is no issue at a place like this. Parents would have willing donated for legal help I was told, so that this girl would be gone, for good.

The thing is I'm angry at the private schools... this is ridiculous, why are they passing this cost on to the parents? I'm sorry but the cost of sending one child per term is eye watering your not telling me they Can't afford to foot the vat bill or lower fees.

Let's abolish private schools and all pay more tax for better state schools, see how these greedy school owners like that.... its not going to happen of course and completely unfeasible but I wish it could it's no less than they deserve.

Personally I'm not sure it's the best policy. Parents using these schools are already in a bigger tax bracket and it's just another kick in the teeth for them. Almost like a punishment for being successful and I think a bad idea.

I get that there are no teachers and something needs to be done, just not sure this is the answer.

75% of a school's expenditure is teachers wages and most private schools don't run on huge surplus so the only thing to really cut is teachers and no-one wants that.
Legally schools have to pass on the full 20% of VAT but they could choose to reduce fees, or not put fees up. Like I said though this then impacts on staffing etc.
Labour are lying when they say schools don't have to pass the full amount on. They are also being incredibly disingenuous about the whole thing considering it is currently most likely illegal.

Let's abolish private schools and all pay more tax for better state schools, see how these greedy school owners like that

@Mummy2024 if this were to happen, what do you think should happen to all the buildings, science laboratories and playing fields etc that belong to the school?

‘ if this were to happen, what do you think should happen to all the buildings, science laboratories and playing fields etc that belong to the school?’

Transition to state schools? We do have science labs in state schools, and theatres, sports fields etc
But presumably these are private buildings or land so it would be up to the schools to decide?
Would be nice to see some of them turn into sports facilities for a wider community… football teams, leisure centres, etc

‘so the only thing to really cut is teachers and no-one wants that.’

Many schools have land, buildings etc that can be sold or rented or re-purposed…

Goodness, you seem to know as much about tax as my labour Parliamentary candidate- absolutely nothing!

VAT is a tax that a business (in this case the school) is legally obliged to add to the invoice that they send to their customers. They must add the full 20% on the school fees and hand it over to the government. They are simply the governments tax collector. They have no choice as to how much of the fees they charged VAT on.

If they charge VAT they can recover VAT on their expenses. But there’s no VAT on salaries so unless the school has recently incurred a lot of capital expenditure this VAT is usually avery minimal amount of money.

And how many private schools are profit making bodies? The majority are non-profit making charitable bodies so hardly have a pool of free money to throw around. How about you educate yourself rather than just spewing Labour HQ nonsense?

My child school would sell any buildings they had to to property developers. Absolutely no question about it.

The state must likely couldn't pay for the upkeep of some buildings of private schools (especially if listed). So most likely the playing fields would be sold off to developers for housing estates, the non teaching staff would be made redundant to the detriment to the local economy and the school buildings would be demolished to build new schools.

Current private schools classes are smaller than state so the classrooms will be smaller and older buildings are not easily modified. It would be easier to demolish the buildings.

However you fail to take into account that if the schools are charities then the state couldn't just mandate a sale.

Just from your statement it is clear you really have no clue about the independent sector.

Not if the school is a charity, it doesn't work like that.
Who exactly would the school sell a playing field or random building to? How would they offer sports if they didn't have the facilities to play sports?

this sounds more like a wish than a realistic possibility if you consider the numbers -

93% currently go to state.

One of the more optimistic studies about the revenue potential of the policy, from IFS, estimates that at most 7% parents will leave private sector after VAT change. This increases state share to about 93.5%

One of the least optimistic studies from Adam Smith institute estimates about 20% leaving private sector, post-VAT. This increases state share to 94.5%

So we are looking at an increase in state sector parents between 0.5% to 1.5%.

Unless they are magically endowed with some sort of super power of lobbying and persuasion, what difference this minuscule number of new parents can make that the current 93% cannot?

The policy would drag these people into the state sector for sure, but do not expect them to suddenly start improving schools by their very presence. If this was possible, the first 93% would have done it already.

The problem Captain is you believe what suits your argument and reject anything else as implausible. There are lots of names for this type of thought process.