Term time holidays

[roundtable]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this.

During August this year, the fining system of parents for taking children out of school for term time holidays is going to be nationalised. The local authorities (not the school or the teachers they don't do the fining) will have the ability to fine £80 per parent per child for the 'first offence'. Second term time holidays £160 per parent per child. Third could result in prosecution and if found guilty failure to safeguard children's education can be added to show up on any dbs applied for.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more outrage to be honest. Most parents don't seem to know about it yet. I think it's a nonsense. Most parents who chose a family holiday in term time are not the persistent absentees. I'm a teacher and I can't speak for all of them but having a term time holiday isn't really something that gets me in a tizzy. There are far more pressing concerns than that. Although, dont ask me to send home the work they've missed!

I can't take term time holidays so I've no real skin in this game but if I could - of course I would! I believe it should be at the head teacher's discretion as it used to be. A head knows whether or not a particular family has an issue with attendance and could authorise it accordingly.

Everything is so expensive for a lot of families at the moment and life can be hard. Taking away the opportunity for a family ro spend some quality time together in an affordable way just seem really sad. Lots of mine and my children's best memories are holiday related. Or am I being unreasonable?

(Unless you play the system and take a term time holidays every other year as it's within a 3 year period.)

I'm fully expecting some replies of - 'well I never went on a family holiday in term time as a child and I'm fine' and words like 'parents are so entitled' to be used but I think it's very such a shame that people's quality of life seems to be getting worse, not better. Surely it should be the other way around?

The 10 week rolling period, does that mean that if you take child out once a year it is classed as a first offence and then a year later it's still a first offence as the time lapse has cleared

Holiday clubs when they were younger.

Now I wfh and they go out to play/hang out with their pals.

Four holidays in one school year? Seems a bit too much.

No sorry. 1 holiday each school year. So p1, p2 etc

I totally disagree. And I do attendance at a primary school. Am I jealous of families who go cheaply in term time while I’ve had to save up sometimes more than double to take my own holidays in school holiday time when it’s horribly busy with kids everywhe? Hell, yes. But I understand completely why they do it.

When my eldest was in Reception I didn’t have a school job so we were able to take him out the last week of term. We were absolutely skint, and this was many years ago before the cost of living crisis. We only went to a self catering cottage in Devon but god, we needed that change of scene. DH worked such long erratic hours. We couldn’t have afforded it in school holiday time.

New experiences such as holidays away are so important for small children’s development. It’s just plain wrong to dictate that people just shouldn’t go on them if they can’t go during school holidays. And anyway even if everyone DID go during school holidays there probably just isn’t enough accommodation available.

having said that. I do sometimes raise an eyebrow at people who book a fancy holiday abroad during term time rather than be content with one in the U.K. during the holidays for the same money, especially if that family is always crying poverty and saying they can’t afford to pay their breakfast club bills etc. And 2 raised eyebrows if that parent keeps their kid off at the drop of a hat, so attendance is very low. Triple whammy if they don’t bother to find out when any assessments are and end up being away for those.

but overall, life is shitty enough post covid with a lot of treats unaffordable now. A bloody week in a caravan in Wales in June is not something I would want to deny any family.

No the following year would be 2nd offence.

It's that any 10 absences and that is 2 a day if you miss morning and afternoon registration within a 10 week period can be classes as an offence. The 10 weeks is rolling so can be started whenever they want it to. I'd hazard a guess that it would be from the first absence. So you could have 1 day off on a theatre trip, during the first week, 1 day to make a long weekend, 2 days at a close friend's wedding 6 weeks later, accident on the road that makes you late on week 9 and 1 more late would mean a fine was triggered.

If you didn't get all 10 absences within 10 weeks then it resets I think.

I do see the point of heads possibly being unfair if it was just left to them but no system will be perfect. Just better than what we're going to get. Or there must be another way that is fairer than this.

It's not actually doing anything as a previous poster said to tackle the issue of school avoidance which is much deeper and complex than families going on holiday for a week or two.

Low attendance yes. Taking a week out for a nice holiday does not. There is literally no evidence for that.
This does nothing towards helping families with persistently absent children.

My maths is out on that previous post as I was distracted by a dc but you get my point hopefully! 😳

My parents did the same. I want to do the same for my kids. And now some idiotic MP came up with a hair brained scheme to fine parents to sort kids truanting. Meanwhile forgetting the fact they don’t treat teachers as well as they could and they’re leaving the profession, we don’t have enough SEN places and schools are falling apart quite literally in some places.
But nah let’s concentrate on kids who may well be getting straight As for all they care but dared to take a week off to go somewhere nice with their family. 🙄

The problem is that for every family like yours and mine, who genuinely support our children's education woth string attendance, doing the homework and extra learning, supporting the school with volunteering and not taking the piss, there are always those who will.

the school simply report to the council who apply an annonymised rule across the board regardless of how well your child is doing and whether they can afford to miss a week here and there or how much you genuinely support the school as a community.

It is frustrating! Not least as I'd love a cheeky week out and DH is firmly in the "it's against school rules" camp! 😆

The only issue I see with the idea that if you normally have good attendance you should be authorised a 5 days holiday, is what if I still can't afford a holiday but want 5 random days out cos the museums and beach will be quieter or just 5 duvet dsys as we all fancy some family time.. It sends a message that OK miss 5 days school. If you have money.

It must be very hard for heads to have discretion on these things as they are making value judgements on this trip is ok, but that one isn't. Must be very easy to end up with unconscious bias, too.

But that said, I dont agree with fines. I think it's the wrong solution to the wrong problem.

I've rarely taken mine out - mainly because I couldn't afford a holiday even at cheap rates most years! But my parents used to take me on holiday in September/October a lot of the time because that was what they could afford and the weather was still fairly nice.

I disagree with fining families, the rule is children need to be educated. Many holidays are more educational than a week in school in so many ways.

"the school simply report to the council who apply an annonymised rule across the board regardless of how well your child is doing and whether they can afford to miss a week here and there or how much you genuinely support the school as a community"

That is the only fair way. Why should ( for example) more able children be allowed holidays when other children are not.

I'm glad it's not at the headteachers discretion tbh, imagine the pressure on heads trying to justify to parents why one family were given permission and another was denied.
The repeat offenders spoilt it for everyone I think. If it was the odd family taking term time leave there would not have been an issue but some family do the same year in year out and often it's these kids who aren't doing well academically and are unable to hold down good friendships.

I’m a disabled single parent. You bet if I’m ever able to afford to take my child on holiday, I will be taking him out of school to do so. It basically is penalising the ‘poor’ further as people who can afford to do holiday time will do, the ‘poor’ have no other option than to take their children out of school. I really do hate this country

Above poster, have some compassion. I can afford the fines, private school if child needs to just to bypass this ridiculous policy but honestly this takes the piss now. I remember when child free and single and a close family member had a wedding and it was a nightmare trying to book leave from work in August despite booking ahead in advance because all my colleagues who had children booked leave and I was denied my leave. So it's still not guaranteed to be able to get time off work even if you can afford the extortionate rip off prices during peak season.

Also, at my newborns 6 week check up just recently the Dr explained how ferocious they are with insisting all children take vitamin D supplements due to the shit weather here and how so many children are being diagnosed with bone diseases. With children's mental health issues being so rife as well, a week in the sun can do wonders to both health and mental health. The weather now seems ok but until when plus children are stuck in hot stuffy classrooms. This is again poorly thought out only penalising the poor and again children.

even if you can afford the extortionate rip off prices during peak season.

What do you want to happen with pricing?

If they have 1,000 weeks of holiday to sell and can fill every space at £2,000 it would be stupid to sell them at £1,000 and have double the number of potential customers as spaces.

Plus it would then be a lottery like trying to get Glastonbury tickets.

Then there's the issue of how to make up the rest of the lost revenue for the year. If you can't fill spaces at even £500 off-peak and you've already given away 50% of your peak revenue you'd just go bust.

Surely lack of vitamin D and sunlight is far more likely related to the propensity for spending time indoors, online, instead of playing outside than it is on not going on holidays?

If it becomes accepted to take your children on holiday during term time then people without children will find themselves at the back of the queue for annual leave in term time as well as in the school holidays.

I never had a holiday abroad during my childhood and I don’t think it did my bones any harm. I’m 63 and my bone density is fine. I think a healthy diet is just as important. Look at the Dutch they get the same weather as we do and they are taller.

My problem is that I think school fines should be dished out at the end of the year.

We took our DD out for 4 days in December 2022, and got fined. We weren't expecting to get a fine as it was 8 sessions, not 10, but our school implements fines from the first day. But by the end of the year, her attendance record was 97%. They were the only days off she'd had all year.

We took her out for 2 days before half term this year so we could have ten days abroad. On one of the days, it was the class treat (so they just watched a movie and wore PJs), the second day was the auditions for the school talent show - so those who didn't want to audition (like mine) would have been left literally sitting there, watching their peers and doing nothing. Yet if I copped to it, we would have had another fine, even tho by the schools own admission they weren't doing any learning on those two days.

We actually just said she had been sick overnight, and claimed the 48 hour rule... which is what I think most parents will do.

We are now in agreement that frmo now on, we won't take her out of school but I just think if you're in primary, what does it matter? She's missed far more education from strike days and lockdowns than the six days total across a three year period...

This is the last year that my DD will take two term time holidays because of one of her DC going to high school. It has just meant around six days missed. Both children have excellent attendance and we all do homework with them. My objection to fines is the lack of safeguarding towards children who are routinely absent and are from families that have had family support involvement, CP via the school etc. I know these parents, fines would work. Their children are kept off because they've been partying, generally up late, too lazy to take them, to cover physical abuse and so the children don't talk about what's gone on. Obviously thise parents don't value education and the majority aren't showing any work ethic. Then there's the children who inclusion isn't working for, who are waiting too long for assessments and who don't have the support staff and the schools haven't got the curriculum flexibility. Parents taking term time holidays aren't the reason for children who are failing, or the lowering of educational attainment.

I expect this will increase the number of deregistrations from school! I for one would be handing in my deregistrstion letter on the second fine and threat of the third.

Schools/local authorities/the government seem to think they should control what grown adult parents do with their children. Sure when it comes to safety and similar I get it. But schools are not the only place you learn! If anything, with the intelligence level of some teachers I come across, kids are probably learning more out of school.

With a child attending school looming it actually fills me with anxiety that an external body is going to tell me what me and my child can do! I'm debating sending to independent school just to have a bit more freedom and say. Or even homeschooling. Schools need to back off or they risk alienating parents.