Child who enjoys being deceitful

[Haveyouanyjam]

Not so much an AIBU but a WWYD with a child who genuinely enjoys/gets thrills out of doing things they know they aren’t supposed to?

Sneaking around after being put to bed, stealing food, accessing things they aren’t allowed. Each of these things we’ve tried to tackle individually with an honest and open approach about why they are happening and what we can do to support them not to feel the need to do them, but it seems to always be something new and they have admitted getting enjoyment out of sneaking around.

He believes if he wants something, he should be allowed to have it. That he should be allowed to do whatever he wants.

I think you need professional help. There are some situations where well meaning interventions, trying one thing then another to see what works won't give the best outcome.

And this is going to sound really out there but if he is engaging in thrill seeking behaviour, consider having him tested for Toxoplasmosis gondii infection. It can alter behaviour, so its not fair to leave it untreated while also using behavioural modification therapy.

Was going to say ADHD. Both my adhd-ers are adorable but sneaky. It's impulsive rather than deceitful and it may not seem like it, but they care very much. Regretfully I didn't handle it well the first time because I didn't understand. It does pass - either with time or medication, either way, it will pass. Don't make it a confrontation, rather support them so they see you as someone to help them improve as we all strive to do. Ruling over adhd-ers doesn't work.

Thanks, that’s helpful. Sometimes the temptation comes in to rule, whereas I know it works better if I say ‘what can we do to sort this together’ he is very sensitive to criticism and a lot of the time I have to explain that I’m trying to help (with reminders etc) and am not having a go at him, as he tends to either be angry for the reminder (thinks I’m telling him off when I’m not - use very soft language but still an issue) or gets angry at me for not reminding him. Such is life.

So if he wants something, why shouldn't he have it? If I want something - I make sure I get it, it's called single mindedness or determination. So why can't he have what he wants? Perhaps his wants need refining, redirecting, delaying or whatever. Work with him, be an ally in supporting him to get what he wants in an appropriate way. Let him negotiate, reach a mutually beneficial agreement. Let this be his strength not his downfall.

You probably know that oppositional defiance disorder is part of ADHD. It's only ODD if you let it become that.

Is he in therapy? Have you been educated in trauma informed care? This is essential as a child who went through similar

That’s a nice idea, but when he wants to hurt people, take things that aren’t his, not do any homework, never tidy anything, let everyone else do everything for him, how exactly is that going to work?

We focus on goals, but he believes he shouldn’t have to do homework, or anything he deems boring. He should be allowed to take and have whatever he wants, but others can’t have what’s his.

It is not simply determination if you have something regardless of the cost to yourself or someone else. If something is bad for us or harmful to someone else why should we have it just because we want it?

If it were up to him, he would only go to school when he wanted, would never brush his teeth, put anything away, would take whatever he wanted, including from shops, would eat himself sick, would hurt people who he felt were unfair to him. These things are not negotiable really.

I see that getting to his overall
goals of being stimulated, satisfied etc. are reasonable and will work on him meeting those in other ways, but I don’t think it’s as simple as you’re suggesting.

Entitlement is a key underlying factor in most offending, so not sure we should be supporting it. I’m sure you are also clear in what is right and wrong but unfortunately he is not due to his previous experiences.

He is in counselling, has had play therapy and due to start art therapy. I am not
offered any support as a step parent so don’t know where I’d access it. Nothing offered from school or local authority of that nature. I have been in his life since he was turning four but he has lived with me three years now.

It must be linked to the trauma. Feeling like he has to steal food to survive / was food previously withheld by his previous parent?
I grew up without a sweets cupboard.. just saying it IS optional, not a requirement of life.
Looking at a typical week objectively, does he get enough parent-child time and attention?

Came to say I know boys in particular can thrive on negative attention. Someone I know used to shout at her 2 sons constantly and they would be giggling and sniggering together through it all. It doesn't mean much other than they get to see you explode unlike other adults who can keep it together. It was painful to be around frankly because she was so stressed it became her natural default.

I think moving things they shouldn't access or locking away if unsafe, making effort to calmly reward good behaviour and explaining what you expect of them clearly and sticking to it should help. Some kids love a competition so wall charts with stars and sweets can work but you have to be super fair and not take away from work they do for a star for bad behaviour elsewhere, such as at school, or it throws the whole idea out.

Are you foster or adoptive parents? I'm assuming from the quoted post. I would suspect if so, that there were previous issues with food (or lack of) from birth parent and it would need a therapist input rather than MN well-wishers to really cure.

Trauma and dopamine seeking from as yet undiagnosed ADHD.

I would see if there are any support groups for carers of traumatised children online or in your area, and read books - those designed for foster or adoptive parents. Although you are a bio parent the situation is very similar.

I also lived with my other parent after abuse and dysfunction with my initial parent. Even though you have the family bond, he has had different experiences and trauma affects your brain development and behaviours on a very basic level.

You need to look into trauma informed care.

In the same way that a severely physically disabled child needs specialist parenting rather than just being told to get their active, this child has suffered severe mental health issues as a result of their parent and needs specialist parenting.

Counselling for him alone will help but he needs to be in an environment that supports it.

In the same way as parents of a physically disabled child might do their physio exercises with the child daily, you need to be supporting his mental health daily and the way to do that is through trauma informed parenting.

Try

www.mareinc.org/articles/trauma-informed-parenting-overview?hs_amp=true
for an introduction

Also here

www.traumainformedparenting.uk

Exactly! This is what ‘stealing food’ means. Not sneaking a tin of beans cause your parents think dinner is for gluttons FGS. Not addressing these sorts of eating habits is why we have an obesity crisis.

Therapeutic parenting is the way forward IMO. Punishment will achieve nothing positive for a child who has experienced severe trauma.

I also wouldn’t place too much emphasis on the language he uses to justify this behaviour. He’s trying to find an explanation but saying he enjoys being deceitful is not the full story. I’m sure he doesn’t actually understand his motivations as they are clearly rooted in trauma. I would pay less attention to his descriptions of his actions and focus more on fostering your relationship and creating a routine that reinforces consistency, as part of a larger commitment to therapeutic parenting. It sounds as though you’re doing a great deal already to help him recover from his early years, but it’s going to be a long haul.

As a parent to fostered and adopted kids stealing food sneaking etc us a fairly normal expression of attachment disorder and insecurity. It also hails from the primitive brain, he is creating some predictably for himself ie if he steals he knows he has food to ho at just in case you don't provide it. It's about him having a level of control in a world that is completely chaotic to him. Punishment doesn't work, you need to work in tasks that offer him some control back such as putting him in charge of making tea (with supervision) put out snack box that he can choose from a selection of snacks for day but once it's gone it's gone. I'd lock away anything at night that is out of bounds such as sweets etc. Eat at predicted times of yhe day, following a routine for other tasks as much as possible. Poor kid, its hard I know but as he settles it will pass.

My mum had me on restrictive diets when I was a child (therapist said it was to an abusive starvation level). I used to grab whatever I could when I could, I’m overweight and still struggle with eating.

I would try not to make a big deal out of this, he’s probably putting on a front about being able to do what he wants because it’s hard for him to articulate that what he’s experiencing is a scarcity response. Having a big chat about it will probably make it worse from his perspective. Buy less sweets stuff, don’t monitor him and when it’s gone it’s gone. But please for the love of god don’t make it a “thing”.

I understand it’s difficult to understand the mindset if you haven’t lived like this. You believe you are bringing order to his life he probably feels you are exerting control and he reflexively knows that he can’t trust other people to have control.

I’ve just listened to a fascinating autobiography by Patric Gagne. She describes her reasons for stealing as a child and was incredibly insightful. It demystifies a lot of the stigma around the reasons why some children act the way they do. Whilst the title is Sociopath, I am in no way attributing that label to your son, but the book also removes a lot of the social stigma attached to that label, which I found very interesting.

He’s stealing sweets, he’s not making himself a sandwich. He’s not hungry.

It's not about the food, it's about the thrill he gets from acting in this way. He's having counselling, find him a sport that gives him an adrenaline kick, tires him out and builds self-esteem.

I wouldn't presume to give advice over the internet on how to work with what sounds like a looked after child with a history of early childhood trauma, but I very much doubt that characterising him as entitled is remotely helpful. There's nothing entitled about a child who grew up neglected by their parents.

Would some sort of therapy/counselling help? If he's been through trauma, all the punishments, talking, consequences etc will mean and do nothing

After your initial post op, I was going to say ADHD but didn't want to get flamed by others for jumping on the bandwagon without further context.

You already know that thrill seeking for that dopamine hit is a characteristic of ADHD. He's had a neglectful start in life, which stays with them no matter how supportive you are.

My nephew is adopted. Similar start to life, diagnosed with ADHD several years ago. Dsis has caught him sneaking downstairs for food in the dead of night, and other similar behaviours. He can never explain why he does it. All I can say is that it has all improved significantly since getting medication. We can always tell when the medication is wearing off late afternoon.

You've said your son is getting assessed for adhd. Is there any way you could afford a private assessment and diagnosis? In the meantime, you could perhaps explore other ways of satisfying the dopamine hit urge during the day. Does he do any sport? Are you following all the strategies for managing a child with ADHD while he's waiting for a diagnosis?

encourage his story writing?

No advice I’m afraid but parenting a child where you’re unpicking someone else’s bad parenting is next level. Don’t feel disheartened by posts based on ignorance of this. You’re doing a great job.