Child who enjoys being deceitful

[Haveyouanyjam]

Not so much an AIBU but a WWYD with a child who genuinely enjoys/gets thrills out of doing things they know they aren’t supposed to?

Sneaking around after being put to bed, stealing food, accessing things they aren’t allowed. Each of these things we’ve tried to tackle individually with an honest and open approach about why they are happening and what we can do to support them not to feel the need to do them, but it seems to always be something new and they have admitted getting enjoyment out of sneaking around.

Yep as soon as i read "he did live somewhere previously" and i was like "now we are getting to it.

I would actually try and find professional support IRL as randoms on the internet arent going to give the most qualified advice.

Thank you. That’s really helpful.

I’d also like to highlight deceitful was mainly for the headline to summarise the issue. He expresses that doing something of that nature is exciting for him.

his biological parent is also a prolific liar and made him lie a lot so obviously that doesn’t help!

My issue is, he enjoys doing things he knows he’s not allowed to do, for the reason that he knows he’s not allowed to do them.

Dont punish. Keep responding with love and support. This is how traumatised children test their newer caregivers, to reassure themselves that they are now loved and their new caregiver won’t turn into an abusive adult.

It builds trust in them that you won’t hurt them. Usually it takes YEARS of this before they trust enough to settle down.

My adhd child goes through phases of taking food. Not meals but just things she fancy's that she knows I'd say no to because it's too late for sweets, ice cream and other things like that. I'd say it's 100% linked to her adhd and her need to have a dopamine hit as her brain lacks it. She eats more than me during the day, she's not hungry just craves dopamine which she gets from sneaking downstairs and then the chocolate she's sneaked. I pull her up on it when it happens she apologises for not asking few weeks pass and she's back at it. I don't think you're starving your child I think it's an adhd thing. It presents in different ways for different people.

Your message that he thinks "he should be able to do what he wants" is the problem. To get through to him that no one gets to do what they want is the issue. I'm not sure how you develop a conscience in a child that has never had that behavior modeled. You need help.

There are other reasons for my concern about him offending in future, which are valid. I am not a lay person in this area, but they are not wholly relevant to this point and I don’t want to air everything on a public forum.

Some helpful responses, thank you. I do hope that the ADHD assessment will provide some information as to what is likely linked to that, and what is more a result of the trauma, as I think it will help me with my approaches in dealing with different behaviours. I don’t want to assume without the full diagnosis but have completed the paperwork and would be shocked if that wasn’t the conclusion.

@Octavia64 yes you have just articulated this trauma response really well.

OP, I don't know if you are quite old fashioned in your parenting style or were brought up in a strict household. I read through your posts that you're actually afraid of having no control so are reacting quite strongly here out of your own fear. These things he is doing aren't really that terrible. He's just not a 'compliant' kid. Traumatised or Neuro divergent kids rarely are compliant.

I had to change my entire mind set in parenting. I had to let really stupid stuff go from my own childhood and the authoritarian way I was parented.

The suggestion ref his own little box of healthy snacks in his room sounds a really good one to me. Who cares if he's snacking away in his room if it helps keep him from wandering round all night looking for food.

Ask him what he wants and needs. Ask him how he'd feel about the snack box.

So actual advice:

If it's really important he doesn't access something then either don't have it or put a lock in it.

So don't buy sweets etc. if he accesses tech inappropriately lock the tech in your car boot over night. Put a latch or lock on doors in your house.

Etc etc.

It'll take a long time to persuade him to respect boundaries because he has survived by ignoring them. So don't rely on them - just do the equivalent of baby proofing your home. Remove stuff if it's not safe.

Well, what sort of things are they? Are any of them hurtful to other people, or is it more Dennis the Menace/ Bart Simpson type thing - eg yeah squeezing out all the ketchup looks a lot of fun right now? Because a lot of kids do the latter sort of thing and don’t really know why - there have even been threads on here where people reminisce about their behaviour and still can’t fathom it. Could he need to go in for something actually a bit risky, say skateboarding, for release?

My alcoholic parent was extremely consistent.
He came home from work, drank, ate dinner, drank, went to bed, on repeat, every single day of my childhood.
I was a teen before I realized that not everybody’s dad did that.

This does sound like a situation where ‘normal’ parenting ideas and techniques may not be helpful or even appropriate. Can you access more professional support to help you?

@Renamed good points. My son was into scootering regularly, and loves high adrenaline activities. It's an excellent release for stressed out kids, gives them a dopamine hit and helps with excess energy Id look at giving some of those things a try. Let him take lots of risks in play without getting all worked up like so many parents do.

I don’t think I’m particularly strict or authoritarian, I think he sees me that way because of the permissive/aggressive parenting he received previously. He has sweets/chocolate every day, I deliberately have a whole mini selection to choose from (since the sneaking) as he gets bored easily so this provides novelty and a lot of choice and he has responded well to that. It also usually means less quantity of sugar as the variety is more important. He snacks regularly, eats no vegetables or fruit, so I focus on high protein such as nuts, 100% nut butter on crackers, yogurt etc. and cram lots of good stuff into the meals he likes. Food is hard but I feel comfortable that I’m taking the right steps. It’s the fact that any time he has any sort of age appropriate freedom he will do something he knows he shouldn’t. Impulse control is definitely an issue so hopefully we will get support on that.

Yes we try to do high adrenaline things, he has been motor biking etc and is good on his bike on roads and will do jumps etc. happy to let him climb high trees and walls that scare the life out of me because he is very agile so unlikely to actually get hurt. I do think he lived in such a dramatic environment he is trying to create drama sometimes. Thrill can also be dangerous/harming to others so will definitely try and make sure he is getting it with other activities, we do it but maybe not consistently enough.

Only read page one- I was a bit like this as a child. Not necessarily the same specific behaviour but I liked being sneaky. I liked doing things secretly without being found out. Sometimes they were forbidden things, sometimes minorly forbidden I.e. stealing sweets. Sometimes things I really would have been in trouble for , I.e. lighting fires. Playing tricks on my brother. Keeping secrets, hiding things. Even things that weren't forbidden.
I didn't like being told what to do and would tend to follow rules only if I understood and agreed why they were there OR if the threat of being caught/punished made whatever it was not worth it.
I don't know what to tell you really, I had loving, good relationships with my parents and siblings and wider family. My parents fought a lot, sometimes very scarily, so maybe I had some trauma, but I don't think of myself as being a traumatised child. Maybe it had something to do with being one of many siblings and the secrecy was like a bid for privacy.
I grew out of it! My parents didn't have deep chats with me about why or anything. They told me off, punished if necessary, got aggravated with me, just normal parenting. I still feel the same as I did about rules though. But I am a responsible member of society! No criminal record!

Maybe just tell him not to or whatever and don't overthink it.

Poor impulse control and thrill seeking behaviour is very common in children who have experienced trauma early on in life. There's lots of evidence about Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) and the effects on development, attachment and trust. A calm, consistent and supportive approach is important - gently explaining why he cannot do whatever he wants as it's your job to keep him safe and healthy. I hope you can get some support for yourself too as these are long term problems that take a lot of time and patience to improve. It's a good sign that he's open with you and trusts you enough to talk about the feelings he gets from behaving in this way.

We have 2 children. If we only a had our first born then I'd be really cocky and say it depends on how they were weaned. She was a perfect blw poster child, she eats from any nice restaurant, 1& 2 star level, and has done from being tiny. Second born, feeding him is the most stressful thing I've ever done. He was prem and we suspect some of the awful things he has done to him may have had an affect on his palate. We've had to completely change our holidays because of him. God its easy to sit any judge.

You’re kidding right? My kid steals sweets because she wants them, knowing full well she isn’t allowed. The other 3 kids don’t. She lies easily and quickly. The other 3 don’t. It’s personality OP. All people have their weaknesses. My second childs weakness is definitely deceit and she does it very naturally. With her I think it’s a mixture of independence and hatrid of getting in trouble. Shes an incredible person though in ways that are unique in our family so other than my concern about her weight and health, I think she’s going to be very strong at making her own decisions and finding her own way when older.

I think with hindsight it was a mistake to mention that he takes food. That's what posters are focusing on when there is clearly much more at play.
However hard you try OP, this isn't something you can do on your own. He needs professional help and a lot of it. But you can maintain strict but fair boundaries while telling him you still love him.
How many outlets does he have? Sports, hobbies, friends? The more rewarding things he has in his life the better, so that he can get his emotional high in more healthy ways.

He definitely sounds like he may be ADHD, he could be Autistic as this often overlaps but you won't know for sure. Mixed with the background it will be a challenge.

If he's going to the kitchen looking for these snacks at night time, I'd make sure they are locked away. He might be sensory seeking ( common if he's ADHD). Have you tried getting him all those sensory toys - fidget balls, clickers, fidget ring, spinners. If my son can't sleep he goes in his box and gets them all out.

When I'm not looking he'll go in the kitchen and try stash chocolate in his pocket. I think it's hilarious. I've locked it somewhere away so that problem is solved now! You'll have to use real physical boundaries for now. My son is 12 and still tries it on.

This will absolutely improve with age! There is no magic fix for impulse control but it will get better based on my experience

On some ADHD group I'm on they really advocate certain supplements like omega 3 fish oil and other key nutrients for ADHD brains. I'm trying this out now.

Thank you. It’s helpful to remind myself that this is a long term battle against what he’s been through (especially as the parent in question is still in his life intermittently and reinforcing the unhelpful beliefs) and that remaining consistent and loving will be the biggest help over time. It can just feel like you’re failing. I don’t know how to instil empathy in a child other than modelling it consistently, as that is also an issue, but hopefully change will continue over time.

OP,
Are you related to the child?
It does not sound like a foster/ adoptive situation, because you would not be asking on here.
I am not asking out of curiosity, I think the answer could have a bearing on the advice you are given.

I am step parent with parental responsibility and currently the main caregiver (father is present but not full time, largely positive influence but some instability, mother is very in and out and largely negative influence).

Yes trying omega 3 and magnesium, also come in sweet form so he loves that!

we use fidget toys but they often seem to have the opposite effect and hype him up? So we tend to use them when he can’t be physical (in the car etc) but find them unhelpful at bedtime.

I can see what you are saying, but sometimes it’s os good to be sneaky!!

I quite often, when the kids were younger, allowed them to be sneaky and naughty in my presents - ‘shall we sneak a biscuit before bed?’ And I’d let one of them take it upstairs as almost forbidden but allowed?
Playing tricks on Daddy was sneaky - he obviously knew and played along - it was fun and the kids thought it was a great game -

Just wondering if this is something he craves, you might allow it occasionally to see we are all sneaky sometimes?

Different perspective?