Wanting assurances about Women’s Rights, yet debate is often reframed around trans issues - why?

[DissidentDaughter]

Ask about women’s sex-based rights and, for some reason, many hosts/moderators and contributors automatically head down the ‘trans rights/gender’ avenue… What’s going on?

51% of the population - a distinct class in our own right - and yet most journalists and TV/radio interviewers struggle to be accurate and focused when announcing the topic.

How credible is the ‘toxic debate’ mantra?

How is it ‘bigotry’ for women to talk about their sex-specific realities and the right to safeguard boundaries and single-sex spaces/services?

Why do many people get offended by the concept of ‘consent’?

• AIBU - journalists/TV&Radio hosts shouldn’t have to bother about clarity

• YANBU - journalists/TV&Radio hosts have a duty to understand the distinction between women’s rights and trans issues.

Not answering your questions but I was listening to a political debate on woman’s hour with all parties, and every time the topic was trans rights it was about trans women. At least let’s talk about trans men!! Guess they don’t make as much noise.

Obviously a hot topic at the moment.

Of course you are not being unreasonable. However, so many people have decided to nod along to TRA demands without thinking through the implications for women.

When the conflict is pointed out, they sometimes aren't very receptive to their cosy view being challenged, so they have to make anyone standing up for women's rights the bad guy.

The answer is very simple to me. If men want to wear more female clothes / present as more female then they should not face discrimination for doing so. If they need third spaces, then I'm very supportive of that.

But men can't be women and women's sex specific spaces need to be preserved.

They don't. They also don't have anything like the same impact on men's rights/safety if they seek to enter men's sports, be placed in men's prisoners or men's shelters.

Interesting fact though - when the GRA was being drafted, provision was made to exempt trans men from taking one privilege away from biological men - estates are entailed in the male line.

The GRA made sure men's rights were protected here and a GRC made no difference to the legals around this. No such provision was made to safeguard any women's rights.

It's part of a very deliberate narrative to frame trans women as "the most vulnerable" to justify why women who refuse to roll over and allow single sex exemptions to be made meaningless are toxic and nasty.

The trans community and allies could be spending their time campaigning for better care, third spaces and against bullying/harassment.

The thing is they don't want to uphold the rights they already have. They want women's rights in addition to this.

It's all about using women as validation and the thrill of being in women's spaces even when they know it makes some women uncomfortable and/or forced to leave those spaces.

The irony of "knowing" you are a women yet having absolutely no respect or empathy re: why single sex spaces are important; the height of male entitlement.

Male privilege - men who 'identify' as women have that in spades

@Ilovecashews not especially expecting answers to my questions, think I was ‘thinking out loud’, but thanks for engaging.

Absolutely let’s not forget about trans men aka trans identified women.

Agree that transmen have little voice or impact but that's because they are female and in reality men know this.

If we behaved more like men this wouldn't be an issue. We need to be foul mouthed, pushy, obnoxious and not listen to anyone that opposes us. Things like removing our spaces can only be done to us if we consent. If I end up in hospital next to a bloke in a nightie, I'll be lobbing anything I can get hold of at him and screaming blue murder.

(Creepy/entitled) men invading women’s defined single-sex spaces and services is in itself “pushy, obnoxious”. Am fully prepared to counter with unsparing language @downwithmaterialistdogma !

However, it’s pretty dire that women are now having to use every ounce of energy and courage to uphold social norms that safeguard our privacy, dignity, safety etc.

Step up, men!

Trans activists: There is no conflict between trans rights and women's rights.

Trans activists every time feminists try to talk about women's rights: Transphobia!

If you turn every discussion about women's rights into a discussion about trans rights you are as good as admitting that there is a conflict between the two.

It's not bigotry to be concerned about women's rights.
If that's genuinely all it is.
It is bigotry to be prejudiced towards people who are trans just for existing in public as publicly trans (whether it be doing their job, or wanting to buy/rent accommodation etc)
Womens rights and trans rights are intertwined imo.
Such as bodily autonomy (stuff like you're not fully developed or grown until you're 25 so let's all debate what people can and can't do with their bodies under that age)
Stuff like being able to get contraception as a teen girl without your parents knowledge (gillick competence)
If you start trying to interfere in stuff like that for people who are trans, it affects women too.
Which is why I'm not on board with the "GC" (gender critical) view as I think we should all be sticking together.
Trans rights and women's rights are intertwined which is why it's not easy to "just fix"

Hoping the Equality Act definition of ‘sex’ is cleared up.

As a distinct class, women warrant accurate data on pay inequality, poverty and parenting, representation at managerial level, violent crime stats, purposeful health messaging and research etc. Serious issues that often require funding.

The ‘toxic debate’ mantra can get in the bin.

Such as bodily autonomy (stuff like you're not fully developed or grown until you're 25 so let's all debate what people can and can't do with their bodies under that age). Stuff like being able to get contraception as a teen girl without your parents knowledge (gillick competence)

What exactly are you saying here? That getting 'top' or 'bottom' surgery as a minor without your parents knowledge is the same thing as getting contraception? 🫠

Trans rights and women's rights are intertwined

How though?

Unfortunately it won't be because Labour will win and they have already said they have no intention of clearing up the confusion they have created.

How exactly are women's rights and trans rights intertwined?

By the way, gender critical feminists aren't saying trans people should be discriminated against for being trans. We're simply saying that if you were born with a penis you don't belong in women's single sex spaces or sports.

How exactly are women's rights and trans rights intertwined?

I mean - I've literally just bleedin said why I think so in the exact post you've just quoted 🤷‍♀️

Yeah but what you said wasn't convincing.

Contraception? Come on.

Yeah but that didn't make much sense ...

Yeah but what you said wasn't convincing
😂👍

All I can be arsed to muster up for you due to that.
Doesn't matter what anyone says to you, does it?
You've made your mind up anyway.
Agree to disagree 👍

As the Cass reports covers, the point about Gillick competency is - can a teenager ever meaningfully consent to side effects like permanent infertility and inability to organism?

This is worlds away from being competent to consent to contraception.

This is worlds away from being competent to consent to contraception

That's kind of my point though - if you try to undermine it/dismantle it for anyone who might be trans, it affects girls in puberty too.
It's linked.

Women (including under 18s) have been accessing free contraception on the NHS with pretty much no questions asked since way before any of this trans nonsense was a thing.

"Is this 15 year old competent to take a pill which has a 99% chance of preventing pregnancy - a very undesirable outcome at her age - and almost no risk of causing permanent harm?" is not at all the same question as, "Is this mentally unwell/neuro diverse person competent to consent to taking puberty blockers/cross sex hormones which are known to cause harmful adverse effects or to having irreversible surgery with a high complication rate in pursuit of an impossible goal?"

The Cass report says under 18s are almost certainly not competent to consent to that and casts doubts over whether under 25s are competent to consent to it.

With good reason.

Do you have any other explanations for how you think trans rights and women's rights are entwined?

Because as far as I am concerned their rights are, at best, irrelevant to my life, and at worst, directly in conflict with my rights.

All stick together? With people whose interests run contrary to ours and some of whom actively wish us harm? Are you mad?

It's not even the slightest bit linked.

Ok 👍

So have you got any other examples?