To think that the majority of trans people are neurodivergent

[SlipperSliders]

...and I sort of think it's a form of neurodivergence in itself.

By the way I'm trans affirmative.

I don't think I've met a trans person who I thought was neurotypical.

Do you just accept that they are trans or do you dig in to the reasons for their belief?

I'm not trans but I am neurodivergent - and get this DreamTheMoors - I'm a responsible adult with a responsible job, living my life - who'd have thought, eh?

Neurodivergent isn't the insult you seem to think it is and you can't possibly know if your friends are neurodivergent. You clearly know nothing about the issue which is fine, it's complex. 'Having a friend' means fuck all in this scenario. I was married for 20 years - neither of us knew the other was neurodivergent - turns out our entire families are which explains generations of severe mental illness resulting from the pressure to conform.

We all deserve to be proud of our identities but best make sure it really is our own identity and not some pseudo ideology that we've been sold and that will bite us on the arse. Those that stand by and applaud may not in fact be friends at all.

And why can't we tell adolescents:

'It is NORMAL that you don't know who you are or where you fit in yet. It is NORMAL that you don't really like your body or feel comfortable in it. It is NORMAL that social situations are sometimes bloody awkward and hard work... this is adolescence. It isn't forever and it doesn't mean you wish you were born with or without various body parts.'

I'd agree with this, up to a point, but imagining how my adolescent self would have reacted to being told this? I'd add that it being normal doesn't mean that your feelings aren't real or that what you're going through isn't genuinely difficult for you. And that yes, it's much more difficult for some young people than others. But it's not forever, and even if it doesn't seem like it now, someday you'll be able to look back on it from the other side, happier, and be glad you waited it out.

(Any of that would have been better than the categorically wrong 'these are the best years of your life' comments I got from certain people, though. No, the teenage years were absolutely the worst. I haven't lived a charmed adult life, but autonomy and better coping strategies make all the difference.)

I understood that it had been reclaimed. I'm very surprised to see it being described as a slur here.

Hard agree

@glittercunt - a young female cousin of mine for example.
They're physically disabled (in a form that is also highly associated with neurodiversity) and I would say present as ND. They had a fairly miserable time in school 14-18. After school and in lockdown, they were online a LOT. At that point they informed their parents that they were male and planned to transition surgically.

Are you seriously suggesting that young people are not influenced by their peers online, often speaking from very different cultures (eg the US, where 65% of all adults are on at least one prescription drug - it us a medicalised culture very unlike ours)? Because I disagree with you. I think that transition for my cousin was a coping strategy for all sorts of other difficulties that was presented online as a solution to those problems. I think it is OK that they wanted to transition. I don't think they are a man, and I don't think the surgery they had was positive. I further think that those online voices presented a strong, definite series of actions to improve my cousin's that symbolised taking control of her own destiny and identity. Nobody else was offering help that my cousin could access or found useful. I think transition was effectively a placebo, or at best a rite of passage. And I believe very much in the placebo effect.

It really is and I can’t say anything. I can’t suggest that by having 4 more kids when the first was profoundly disabled may have had an impact. I can’t say that these kids are traumatised in ways we never consider because we don’t see the neglect of them because we’re too busy celebrating the parents for barely holding it all together.

i can’t say that every time you gave the healthy child a tablet to tend to the ever increasing needs of the disabled one you pushed them to seek solace in the wrong places.

granted it’s not every single family and it is more complex that this but there’s certainly a pattern of vulnerable children crying out for help and self harming in whatever way they can. Trans imo is a form of self harm and release for some kids in a lot of pain.

Yep my autistic teen thinks it's all a load of shite and has no time for it, thinks they're boring attention seekers. Actually all the genuine ND teens I know (family and kids of friends) think it's total hogwash. That's not to say that many young people that DO think they're trans aren't ND, but people like OP need to be mindful that statements that sound like a sweeping generalisation of connecting ND people with the gender bollocks, is really harmful and offensive to ND people who don't buy into it.

I have 4 adult kids. Two boys, two girls. Two boys are trans identified. All of my children are neuro divergent. Both boys claim to be trans? Both girls are very radical feminists. It's been a nightmare to navigate tbh. I'm also a radical feminist and I've tried very very hard to make sure all of my kids have life skills like decorating and diy cooking etc.

I really feel like I've wasted my time with the boys tbh. They had a strong male to model. Not I do think the ND counts for a huge part of it.

Yes, I have a DD who sounds a lot like your DS. Diagnosed ASD, She says she is ND. It's a horrible term isn't it.

You say you are unaware of the rates of detransition.

This is problematic when we've been 'educated' widely to have an affirmation only approach.

If rates of detransition and research into detransition aren't known widely, why on earth is there such a push for affirmation only?

This is against all best practice advice. No one is informed. And the implications about proper consent and unintended consequences to such widespread ignorance are huge.

This is the single most depressing thing.

If there was a robust scientific base for any of this, the arguments would not so critical. In the absence of that we have a massive problem

Not scientifically proven.

Recent German study has suggested detransition rates are now at 71%.

I was saying quite clearly they aren’t ND.

I’m not going to argue with you.

Despite being GC I think talking about detransition is often a bit simplistic. People move through stages in life, and they don't often go backwards, they're not the sameeven if they leave some things behind as they get older.

That being said, the lack of proper data on desistance and detransition is really crap imo, influenced by the narrative that 'being trans' is something innate rather than a human response to experience. But I would feel 30 years ago i married a man who had already desisted from transition, and when I worked in a service for transgender people, patients often rang us to tell us they were stopping transition, permanently or temporarily.

'But I would feel that' not 'But I would feel'

@RedToothBrush that's a really good point. It's important to know in order to help inform ones viewpoint. I will research this topic a little more I think. I find it interesting.

My points above are very much is it possible rather than I absolutely believe this. As you can probably tell from my posts, I am quite malleable on many subjects like this. I believe many people are very uninformed on this subject and have strong views yet know less than I do.

I'm very open to possibility that many, possibly the majority would not be and vice versa. My thoughts are, do we really know everything and enough on this ( biological element). I don't see myself as affirming. I am opposed to various aspects of the ' pro trans' agenda. I'm sure some trans people are equally opposed to this - enforcing pronoun changes on everyone else, public space issues, sports, children and adolescents. I have quite fixed views on this now thanks to my Autistic son who is not ' pro ' or trans affirmative.

Oh absolutely - I wouldn't want adolescents told that in that way!

And yes, 'its normal' does not mean 'so you're an idiot for feeling... whatever' or 'what you're feeling isn't real'!

Those struggles and feelings are real, the brain is figuring some shit out, as is the entire body... its simply NOT a time to be making permanent life changing decisions and yet it IS a time we actually do start to ask kids to do that, and has been for a very long time (long before kids wanting to take puberty blockers has been a thing, thats just an additional fuckery)

This ^

Paradoxically if I had gone from tomboy to trans as a teen, my own DD who identifies as trans wouldn't exist. Also is gay and highly likely autistic (as am I).

When we’re talking about biological men (men) in approx 98pc of cases - gender dysphoria is vanishingly, vanishingly rare - it’s autogynephilia. This particular paraphilia has now been branded ‘stunning and brave’ and so it’s all being flaunted in women’s faces.

The other thing about detransitioning is that it sometimes doesn't make sense for those who've gone so far down the road of surgery and hormones. I've read stories from people who regret every single thing they've done, but the impact has been very significant and they can't reverse that.

There was a heartbreaking story on Twitter the other day about young men who have 'bottom surgery'
and effectively castrate themselves in the delusion that they can 'become women'. When they realise the fallacy of that, and the truth that they're simply confused gay guys, they can't simply go back to that lifestyle. They've done too much damage.

Where are all the women in their 40s saying 'i wish I could have been trans'? If it was genetic.

Hmm. Seems to be a bunch of them saying 'i was gender nonconforming when I was in my teens and early twenties but THANK GOD that wasn't a thing though.

One key problem has been to lump everyone who identifies as trans as all being the same and having the same needs (homogenous).

Cass points out this isn't reflected in reality. It's a heterogenous (lots of different groups) with multiple complex needs.

In other words the narrative of 'transpeople' just is flat wrong.

It's likely to be different sub groups with different issues - which we should recognise and treat accordingly - so yes some affected by abuse, some autistic, some gay and not really understanding this or coming to terms with it, some with parents who are pushing stuff onto them and uncomfortably some who are likely to be doing it for sexual kicks.

Affirmation only is unlikely to be a good blanket response as a result. The evidence isn't there for a female cohort who are now middle aged or older who are saying they want to transition or should have transitioned. What evidence there is, is largely male centric which has it's own issues (not least about unresearched side effects in females).

This isn't hating anyone. It's treating everyone as an individual who needs to be seen as an individual rather than a mindless blob by so called 'trans allies'.

It’s actually very rare that they do. GD is an Incredibly rare disorder and is almost completely exclusive to males. It is also ‘persistent and insistent’ from toddlerhood.

Almost none of the ‘trans’ people you hear about now fit those criteria. Most ‘transwomen’ also have no plans or desire to have their penis removed

Are we labelling delayed reaching maturity (and problems associated with that) as being trans?

Is emotional puberty presenting differently in autistic kids? Is this the problem?