To think our obsession with the NHS has got out of hand?

[HFJ]

I think we’ve got to the stage of faux outrage, thinking that if the NHS did its job properly, old age would be cured and there’d be no deaths whatsoever.

This article caught my eye https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/20/ae-waits-cause-plane-load-of-deaths-every-week-doctors-say/

Essentially, according to the article, delays at A&E are causing 250 extra deaths a week. You’d expect these extra 250 people to show up in the national statistics. So I checked and found the answer here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending7june2024

I attached the key image. It very much looks to me like deaths are lower than average.

My worry is that this outrage is just being used to prep us for huge increases in tax ‘for the NHS’ and this will be at the expense of spending that would benefit young people, young families who are really struggling right now.

In my area there is no longer any NHS dentistry, a 12 hr wait in A&E is normal and DC has been on an NHS waiting list for over 3 years. I don't think any of that is reasonable or acceptable.

They can still be right that those deaths might have been prevented with better funding. It depends upon how the expected deaths figure was reached in the first place.

I'd prefer higher taxes that funded it rather than higher taxes and it being turned over to private companies for profit with a chargeable element, though.

Agree with you there. It is unacceptable that children wait so long for treatment.

Our obsession with trying to run public services as businesses has got out of hand actually, resulting in poor performance for NHS and LAs

Brexit increased the number of vacancies we have in care/NHS/dentistry/LAs etc

The 250 extra deaths, without looking it up, surely means that those deaths could have been preventable/avoided if A+E was functioning properly? It doesnt necessarily mean that deaths would show as increasing.

If you go back about 10 years, the yearly curve is essentially the same, albeit with a spike every now and then for a nasty version of flu or coronavirus. If we take into account the big increase in population over the same period, it actually looks even more like the NHS IS doing it’s job of preventing deaths.

My dc has been waiting for an operation for 2 years 7 months. It's been cancelled twice.

The whole system needs to be reformed. Chucking money in a bottomless pit is not the answer. We need a move to a european-style insurance system asap.

What do you mean by this, given we have an insurance system

We all pay in for this.

It's always been out of hand. I'm glad people are finally beginning to realise. Better late than never, as they say.

Agree, there's a lot that needs to be improved, but a lot of people also receive good care. No one ever mentions the positives and instead it's made out that the whole system is completely broken and useless.

DH has been on a surgery waiting list for 3 years next month. He still hasn’t even had a preliminary appointment with the consultant just another scan about 6 months ago to see if anything has changed. Still can’t tell us an idea of when he will get a date. It’s not life or death but it is impacting his life significantly and could turn sinister if left untreated.

maybe throwing money at the problem isn’t the answer but something needs to happen.

National Insurance contributions aren't ringfenced for the NHS. It's a giant pot of money that the government dips into for all sorts of things, such as pensions, welfare, social care and whatnot. I don't know enough about the history of National Insurance, but I think it was just called that to make it sound good. It's just another tax, and I hate taxes.

Yes I know that, but that is the system, its a system where we pay in as part of the social contract (well some of us do) and out of that, when entitled we are able to get health care, NHS dentistry to a certain level, benefits, pensions etc

That is the social insurance system we have in this country, so what insurance system are you referring to elsewhere and how would that work?

"It is unacceptable that children wait so long for treatment"

But the implication is it is fine for people that aren't kids e.g middle aged and older people to wait that long?

Fair enough the NHS decides whether operations etc are worthwhile based on age but people should not have to wait years for surgeries or months ) years to start cancer treatment regardless of age.

We currently have a state insurance system if you like although it is not funded per se. go system similar to the state pension. Older People have paid their ni for years and years and paid for operations to previous generations and any children who have had treatment to date.

It would be very unbalanced to now daily pay for private insurance when they will then be landed with high premiums due to their age and the state renege on it's responsibilities.

The NHS was one of the top health system globally less than 15 years ago despite being proportionally lower funded then other countries systems. I'm not convinced by the it's a bottomless pit that can't be fixed rhetoric.

The whole 'social contract' thing to me is stupid. Countries that started afresh, as in had a revolution will have a social contract. It's another Americanism. We do have one, but it's not really what that is. It's complicated.

The healthcare system I want is one that isn't bloated and full of useless jobs unrelated to healthcare. I want it to be such that if you'd rather pay for your treatment, you can, and if you'd rather someone else did, you can have that also. Make National Insurance contributions optional. Of course that'll never happen because of how many government departments rely on it.

I expect the NHS to be funded properly instead of jumping to private alternatives. I also expect the Tories to fix the mess that they’ve created for the last decade or so. Brexit will have a lasting impact for future generations. Many who voted for it, were adversely affected by Brexit. The NHS is underfunded and understaffed.

How do you decide which jobs are useless?

But there has been an increase in excess deaths @HFJ
From Gov.UK

The new report estimates that there were 10,890 excess deaths in England in 2023 (2% higher than expected), compared with what would be expected based on 2018 to 2022 trends, after accounting for the pandemic and revised population estimates.
The previous report estimated that there were 26,976 excess deaths in England in 2023 (5% higher than expected), compared with what would have been expected if the pandemic had not occurred. This is lower than 2022, when the previous report shows 30,587 excess deaths. Excess deaths were higher in the first 2 years of the pandemic: 70,718 in 2020 (from 21 March) and 43,102 in 2021.

Oh and also remove that stupid, pointless cap on how many healthcare professionals can be trained in this country. That would decrease reliance on foreign imports. I'm fairly certain that rule came from the BMA union.

Maybe it would help if the whole nation were to be galvinised like they were during previous wars. Instead of ‘dig for Britain’ it could be ‘Get healthy to protect the NHS’. Would that work? The nation recently and happily ‘Stayed home and ordered a takeaway’ to protect the NHS. Imagine if it were incentivised with 5 yearly check ups and if you present as having looked after yourself, 1p off your tax bill?

I do! I actually posted a thread about it. Rocked up to A+E with child (general no paediatric one here) expecting it to be awful and it was fine. We were in, x rayed, treated, follow up care organised and back out in under two hours. The wait time sign was 0-2 hours. Steady flow of people through the waiting room. It all seemed really efficient.

We are in Scotland and a lot of the comments from fellow Scot’s were also positive experiences. Longer waits/ issues seemed to be more England/ big cities.

more doctors need to be trained and encouraged to stay

You really dont seem to know what you're talking about

Okay. Have a nice day.

I don't think so. For a start, I'd find it very patronising and goes to a blank eyed, fake smiling version of 'These are useless eaters, destroying YOUR NHS' message.