To think our obsession with the NHS has got out of hand?

[HFJ]

I think we’ve got to the stage of faux outrage, thinking that if the NHS did its job properly, old age would be cured and there’d be no deaths whatsoever.

This article caught my eye https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/20/ae-waits-cause-plane-load-of-deaths-every-week-doctors-say/

Essentially, according to the article, delays at A&E are causing 250 extra deaths a week. You’d expect these extra 250 people to show up in the national statistics. So I checked and found the answer here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending7june2024

I attached the key image. It very much looks to me like deaths are lower than average.

My worry is that this outrage is just being used to prep us for huge increases in tax ‘for the NHS’ and this will be at the expense of spending that would benefit young people, young families who are really struggling right now.

Impossible due to the whining that would occur about exemptions for disability, medical reasons for being overweight, dangerous sports, etc etc

The list is endless as to why people cant take responsbility for themselves.

And within seconds, somebody comes along to prove the point.

Sorry but you’re not reading those statistics correctly. 250 extra deaths a week won’t necessarily add to the ONS stats if, say, fewer people are also simultaneously dying from breast cancer or road traffic accidents. It’s not a simple read across.
as for the NHS, its a mess, the vast majority of representative polling says it’s people’s top concern and most people want it to have more funding.
and every country is having to spend more every year on health because people are living longer, often with a series of conditions that need treating. Then we have issues like type 2 diabetes which are often preventable but which cost millions

One thing the NHS does very poorly (as does the average human/and this society) is act to prevent poor health.

The NHS is reactive rather than preventative, as are most people.

If we could shift this, that could make a huge impact.

"The healthcare system I want is one that isn't bloated and full of useless jobs unrelated to healthcare"

I know it is popular to say the NHS doesn't work because of too many managers etc. this is however coming from the same people they said we'd have a green Brexit, world class this and that, rip up red tape, oven ready deals etc.

These are also the same problem that cared little for efficiency for PPE, furlough fraud and lined their own pockets Instead.

Surely the main issue is severe shortage of doctors and nurses, bed blocking because of dysfunctional care system, and difficulty in getting gp appointments and prescriptions for common medicines.

If we use an insurance system (based on water and rail experience) the system will become even more under invested, loaded with debt and extra costs to create shareholder value.

If we consider it in purely monetary terms making people wait longer at a&e will result in more complications which will end up costing more. The same goes for not investing in things like surestart, social care, healthy eating programs, making sure people get GP appointments on time so that things don't progress etc. these things have all been shown to save money in the long term unfortunately governments tend to think in the short term in election cycles.

Correct

Taxes are already high. We spend a frankly scary amount on the NHS as it is. Taxpayer numbers are dwindling and our health is getting worse and worse through frankly self inflicted problems.

Only answer is an insurance system. It’s not scary, it’s not ‘eugenics’ or whatever unintelligent accusation will be made, it’s the norm for the vast majority of developed countries around the world and is a better system than this one.

Again, because society is reactive and not preventative.

As an aside, we could do a lot to encourage different buying patterns at the supermarket, anything fresh and original (fruit and veg and most diary for example) should be subsidised with a penalty paid on highly processed foods

We notice this a lot when abroad, as we shop in local supermarkets a lot, processed food is hugely expensive whereas fresh/baked products are much cheaperr, much more localised produce as well even in cities.

Again, we have an insurance system, so what are you proposing, set this out to explain.

Ah, so the failures in the NHS is the fault of those unhealthy people (implied to be fat). Nothing to do with funding, nothing to do with archaic systems, and nothing to do with the vested interests to turn the NHS over into private hands.

Got it.

Didn't realise the Tory propaganda machine was working this early on a Saturday.

"Imagine if it were incentivised with 5 year health checks"

The NHS already offers health checks to over 40s 50s etc. ....Id assumed this is not routinely offered to younger people on efficiency grounds.....

I really struggle with arguments that the NHS is not being funded properly and question what will happen if our incoming government pour more money into the service without underlying reform.

Five minutes of googling the growth in NHS spending over the last 50 years raises so many questions as to what is actually going on.

Just one visit to my local hospital leaves me shaking my head in disbelief at the waste and over resourcing in some areas, while staff are evidently run ragged in others.

I also question what is actually going on at the point of demand. A recent trip to A&E with a very unwell neighbour, left me stunned. There were numerous people registering at reception with minor injuries that could easily have been dealt with through a local Pharmacy or First Aid kit.

The majority of my family have, or currently are, working in the NHS. The current situation is a frequent subject of discussion at family lunches and I feel their despair at the way the management of the service has changed over the last 30 years. We often discuss whether funding is really an issue and always the conclusion is that more money will not change the outcomes.

The NHS has become a bloated, rudderless, political football in need of major reform. I believe that without it we will see accelerating decline as demoralised staff are left to mop up the growing frustration caused by the political and media ‘underfunding’ rhetoric we are now being fed on a daily basis.

Agreed it's not right that anyone should have to wait extensive periods of time for treatment whatever their age. I feel extremely uncomfortable that op talks only about children and not about all those who need care.

How do people explain then, that the results/outcomes/wait times/performance of the NHS was far better 15 years ago, compared to now?

If its not about funding, what is it to do with?

The NHS was the envy of the world until the most recent Tory government really started in earnest to dismantle it.

My mum went from walking to wheelchair in less than a year due to her hip. She got fast tracked at Christmas as she’s my dad’s carer. Took 6 months to have the op.
My dad needs a back operation as he is virtually immobile and has had it cancelled 3 times. He’s been waiting over 2 years and has gone downhill in that time.
Having worked in the NHS in the finance side I can say there is a lot of waste. It also needs the cap on doctors training removed. Even then it will take many years before there is any extra doctors as training takes so long.

We need a move to a european-style insurance system asap.

I like the French model. The problem is you will have lots of “I paid my NI for years etc etc” but the fact is the majority haven’t paid enough and with an ageing population everyone is going to have to pay more.

Instead of ‘dig for Britain’ it could be ‘Get healthy to protect the NHS’. Would that work?

How would it? You need to address socioeconomic issues as well. Plenty of people who work in the NHS aren’t healthy, do you think they are unaware?

There are certainly inefficiencies in the way the NHS is run that could be improved. I don't understand why people leap to the idea that privatisation is the answer though. If you look at the things that have been privatised in my lifetime (gas, electricity, trains, water) I wouldn't say any of them have been a resounding success in providing what they should at low cost. At least the shareholders have made money though!

I don't think it is a coincidence that the people in power favour private healthcare and the NHS is now struggling to the point that people think that privatisation is the answer.

We do need a much much more preventative approach to healthcare. At the moment it feels like you have to wait for things to be desperate and it's just firefighting, rather than catch things early and get it sorted. Ultimately, that ends up costing more. Like a friend who was denied antibiotics (having not been physically seen by the GP) ending up with sepsis and a two week hospital stay.

We also need to sort out social care so we don't get people stuck in hospital because there's nobody to look after them if they leave. We really need to improve the way carers are paid and treated. It is a difficult and important job that really matters.

I wouldn't place too much reliance on those statistics as apparently ONS changed their methodology in calculating excess deaths so now there aren't any.

I have never been offered a health check.

Try navigating cancer services; no faux outrage needed. It’s absolutely awful.

There are waste & procurement issues.

@MaryMaryVeryContrary do you have private medical insurance? A lot of corporate jobs like mine now offer it but it's also available to anyone.

I actually agree we need reform rather than more money. I just don't agree that the reform needs to involve people making a profit.

I don't know if people remember that big changes were made to how the NHS is run under David Cameron. It was actually working quite well before then with 70% satisfaction. To my mind it must be possible to make changes that improve things again that do not mean moving to an insurance system.

Surely where the money comes from, insurance or tax, is less important than how it is spent. The difference is that one model has people taking money out of the system as profit and the other keeps it in the system to benefit the service as a whole. It makes no sense to me that using insurance will magically make everything better.