To think our obsession with the NHS has got out of hand?

[HFJ]

I think we’ve got to the stage of faux outrage, thinking that if the NHS did its job properly, old age would be cured and there’d be no deaths whatsoever.

This article caught my eye https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/20/ae-waits-cause-plane-load-of-deaths-every-week-doctors-say/

Essentially, according to the article, delays at A&E are causing 250 extra deaths a week. You’d expect these extra 250 people to show up in the national statistics. So I checked and found the answer here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending7june2024

I attached the key image. It very much looks to me like deaths are lower than average.

My worry is that this outrage is just being used to prep us for huge increases in tax ‘for the NHS’ and this will be at the expense of spending that would benefit young people, young families who are really struggling right now.

How will a European style insurance system be better?

Does it cost more, so there is more money in the system?

Does it encourage people to use it less, because they have to pay an excess / co-pay?

Does it change anything about the how the system works that makes it more efficient?

Whenever anyone says this is the way forward, I've never heard any detail about what would make it better.

Exactly, those suggesting it on here have been asked to set out how it works.

Radio silence

And I know how it works in Spain for example, its not cheap and there are exclusions. Other systems have a higher level of funding wherever it comes from, our NHS is underfunded, Im not sure why there is such a level of denial about that

Just to make clear, IMO the Reform we need is not about privatisation.

If our politicians opt for that lazy, flaccid solution, the health care in this country will collapse.

Reform should equal a top down, bottom up review of what is actually going on at the moment, with every layer being able to engage and challenge practices without fear and with a clear properly though out plan for what the new NHS should look like.

Education is also needed as to what service users can actually expect from the service. A&E is not there for cut fingers, wasp stings etc. 20 years ago you would have been sent away, so why not now? Why are people allowed to not turn up for OP appointments without penalty, why are so many prescribed drugs never taken? We all have responsibilities in relation to what the NHS has evolved into and the sooner those discussions take place the better.

Politicians, the media and the service users then need to support the reforms rather than using the NHS to attack the government of the day.

NB - definitely not a Tory supporter, but IMO the current situation is not all their fault and it is not all about funding.

So, we have more doctors than ever, more nurses. GP's are delivering millions more appointments. The NHS is spending more money on treatments, £1m per dose genetic treatments. And yet......

It needs to be streamlined, treatments prioritised, dentistry for children and low earners only. Part payment for those who can afford it.

I work in the NHS. Mental health services are overstretched. Crisis teams are ovehelmed. MH teams are overwhelmed. People present at a and e due to feeling suicidal and are waiting hours to be seen. The police are no longer plugging the gaps due to them being overstretched. People suffer more with mental health due to all manner of reasons but the surge in cost of living, unaffordable housing and lack of job opportunities is probably not helping.

It's horrific but I would choose the NHS over what passes for mental health care in America where treatment is dependant often on insurance.

But good for you in your ivory tower of being able to decide we're all making a fuss about nothing.

So, we have more doctors than ever, more nurses. GP's are delivering millions more appointments. The NHS is spending more money on treatments, £1m per dose genetic treatments. And yet......

More older people means more staff, appointments, treatments etc.

this will be at the expense of spending that would benefit young people, young families who are really struggling right now.

I am not a young person or have a young family. I am struggling financially and have had to take on a second job to make ends meet. So should I just fuck off by your standards? I have contributed for years to schools I dont use, or or other services that benefit other people while getting very little back myself. I have done that willingly. But now as am getting older I have more health needs and I am absolutely not willing to forgo good healthcare to prop up people like you. Why should I?

The curve will be essentially the same every year as more people die in the winter no matter how large the population is, the way to measure if the NHS is preventing deaths is to look at the deaths per capita. I can't find anything more recent than this. UK death rate 2021 | Statista

I prefer the French system. National Insurance is not the same as European insurance models.

So should I just fuck off by your standards? I have contributed for years to schools I dont use, or or other services that benefit other people while getting very little back myself.

Surely you went to school?

I do wish we could have NHS dentist.
There's not one in my town.
Nearest one is 20 miles away in happy to have it.
But we had loads years ago.

Does anyone like taxes? They're a necessary evil and the NHS and the pension budgets should be ringfenced so that conniving politicians can't raid the piggy banks when it suits them.

the NHS and the pension budgets should be ringfenced so that conniving politicians can't raid the piggy banks when it suits them.

The only way to raise enough money is for taxes to be higher for everyone. So not just PAYE but increased council tax, inheritance tax, etc. the country already has more over 65 yr olds than under 15 yr olds and that shift in demographics can’t work. Immigration isn’t particularly popular either but it’s obviously why the government has done little to stop it, we need it!

Make NI contributions optinal

No thanks.
I want a pension, healthcare, sick pay and welfare.

The concept of the social contract is not an Americanism - if you are going to criticise something, at least learn what it is first.

The NHS isn't responsible for public health though, which is what most people think of with 'preventative'. Public health is a function of local authorities; they might commission services from the NHS but the responsibility is with LAs. So that includes things like smoking cessation, obesity, drugs & alcohol, childhood vaccinations, health visitors, sexual health etc. They are responsible for improving people's health and reducing health inequalities.

I have paid back way more than I have taken out. My point is why should my healthcare be compromised for people with young families? The needs of people who have children are not more important than mine, albeit that lots of people with children seem to think their needs trump everyone elses.

The NHS can be whatever we choose it to be and as you say there are lots of NHS initiatives jointly funded with other organisations, primarily health trusts and LAs

It is a National Health Service, nothing is prescribing it to be only a reactive and crisis based service.

We live in society. We can either share costs and benefits as a society or we can take an 'every one for themselves' approach - a high risk for the old and weak.

Do you really want to live in the wild west? No you do not. You want to live in a civilised society, and that means you have to respect the other members of the society. Other people's children are your safety net in a civilised society.

My personal experience of the NHS has not been bad. I'm not denying that there is poor service in many areas and it seems to be a postcode lottery.

There are preventative programmes if you choose to take part in them. I'm in my 50s and had a full health check at 40 and another at 50. I have regular smear tests and mammograms and my Dr asks me to send blood pressure readings every time he prescribes HRT. (Pre pandemic I used to have an appointment for him to do this so being able to do it myself and send readings is a definite improvement). When I reach 60 in a couple of years, assuming things don't change, flu jabs, prescriptions and eye tests will be free.

My DH had a knee replacement done earlier this year. He had it done privately but two friends had theirs done on the NHS. One waited 8 weeks and the other 10 weeks. My DH had a cataract OP on the NHS and it was done within 2 weeks of a referral by Specsavers.

It's certainly very bad in lots of ways but there are also lots of positive stories.

Sure, but take a couple struggling to have children for example, do you expect them to work every hour God sends only to be taxed to pay for the children of other couples? Bit of a kick in the gut.

Do you also want people to pay for other people's pensions all the while knowing that they themselves are probably not going to be able to retire without taking out a private pension? Another kick in the gut.

And public sector pensions are index-linked and guaranteed. There is a reason they are 'gold-plated'. They are not costed so the money isn't set aside beforehand. They are also not subject to inflation, they're instead kept in line with inflation.

And yes, it is an Americanism. It's also a Frenchism, technically. Any country that has had a revolution and thus is comprised of created civilisation, ie synthetic as opposed to organic, that also has a codified constitution like the American Bill of Rights, has a social contract. America is only 248 years old. Canada is much younger than that still, but I digress. It's a very complex thing so I'm not entirely surprised people think we live in a social contract society. The illusion is definitely there, but the actual concept itself doesn't exist in this country.

Yes, I want National Insurance to be optional. I want to pay for my own healthcare and that of my family, not that of complete strangers. I'm sorry if that comes across as offensive, but that is how I feel and it's what I want.

It doesn't come across as offensive, it comes across as deeply foolish.

Unless you are in the top 0.1% wealth bracket with a good martial arts level, you are absolutely better off in a society like ours where resources are pooled and protection of those resources is also shared.

I have paid back way more than I have taken out. My point is why should my healthcare be compromised for people with young families?

Everyone says this! But those dc may grow up and pay back even more than you do.

The needs of people who have children are not more important than mine, albeit that lots of people with children seem to think their needs trump everyone elses.

In society we pay for all though.

Unless you are in the top 0.1% wealth bracket with a good martial arts level, you are absolutely better off in a society like ours where resources are pooled and protection of those resources is also shared.

Exactly! Are people stupid? A healthier society is happier & safer for all.

I have no stats or figures to present,but I know with certainty many deaths could be prevented. I have many very severe health problems. I've spent multiple times in hospital. It is terrifying what it's like. People are saved and for many it's great. For many it is so terrifying we stay home severely unwell because we know what awaits us.

You need to be in there regularly and at the mercy of the system to see with your own eyes what your mind would never want to believe. It is a shit show beyond words

You have totally missed the point of what I was saying which is pretty much this. OP is saying that NHS funding should not be prioritized because there are people with young children and families who are struggling.

I think everyone needs to be supported and we all need to share the costs. I dont mind being a net contributor rather than receiver over the years because I like to live somewhere that people are looked after. But I am never going to agree that the things I need to support me are less important than those for families. We are all important.