to be cross my ds has measles because other parents didn't vaccinate their children

[snickersnack]

He's 11 months old, poor little thing . Fortunately he's going to be ok - he got off quite lightly, I think - but it was scary and he was really poorly for a day or so. Spent 10 hours in A&E yesterday while he had chest x-rays, blood tests, IV fluids etc. Now we're just waiting to see if his sister,who's 2, gets it - she's had one dose of MMR already so fingers crossed she's immune.

We live in an area where immunisation rates are among the lowest in the country. Now I have to go and tell all parents of the other babies he's met recently that their children might be at risk as well...

So flipping true pagwatch. I'm so so sorry to hear about your DS .

My DD1 reacted badly to DTP and despite 4 years of trying to repair the damage she has been left with gut issues, multiple allergies and growth problems. Our doctor wouldn't jab her sister even if we wanted him to.

Social responsibility my arse, people who think that other people's children are dispensible for the good of their own are not in a position to lecture others about social responsibility.

Yurt, I have read a bit about Jayne Donegan, we can find hope in the clearing of her name even though it was ignored by mainstream press. I know less about Lisa Blakemore Brown but I'm appalled by the little I do know, I shall find out more.

Of course if they do manage to make some ridiculous technicality stick to Wakefield et al it will be splashed over the headlines with glee. I'm ashamed of the BBC and our press in general. Brian Deer is so obviously up to no good, his website and hounding of Dr Wakefield is utterly abhorrent.

AbbeyA I read your link. We did have a bit of a discussion about the Poling case. Good on you for re-evaluating your position and being able to see that things are not black and white. You might be interested in this, it refers to the case you linked to;

Yes I know I've already linked to this but I think it is important, could be the beginning of identifying at risk children

Stuffit - if people leave the thread it may be because they are reading about it.
If you were someone who was making sweeping statements and people posted in a way that made it clear there was very much more to the debate than you had initially realised, there would not be much point in sticking around restating your position.
I say that as someone who was initially 100% pro vax but realised a year or two ago from reading someone's posts (Yurt under a different name?) that there was very much more to it than that.
People do change their minds but they don't necessarily do it in the course of one thread.

Having said that though, I have every sympathy with people who leave these threads because debate becomes (on both sides) aggressive and rude.

Hi Kathy.. we've been awfully good about not being aggressive and rude I think!

Maybe that is why people leave -- I hope so. I tend to think it's because they cannot conceive of what may be happening, and can't face it. Maybe that's an assumption I shouldn't make.

LOL Stuffit - I did say both sides. Personally I would leave a thread if I was the one losing my temper - for me it's a sign that it is Time To Step Away From The Computer. Doesn't mean seeds have not been planted, though.

Hard to know what to assume really. I'm sure you're right that sometimes it is a refusal to face a pretty massively frightening possibility.

ha ha Pagwatch. I have noticed that the ones who bang on about social responsibility are the one's who suck lemons in ds1's presence

There are various ways to be socially responsible. I am very aware of the symptoms of measles and with every hacking cough or conjunctivitis my children's cheeks get examined for something that might be Koplik's spots. Even ds1 (and he's been vaccinated and is bloody difficult to check). When ds1 had rubella (caught from a vaccinated child) we were lucky enough to know exactly what it was - and that it was likely to be on its way and stay in (unlike the vaccinated child whose poor mother assumed that it couldn't be rubella as he'd been MMRd and spread it to quite a few people). I always keep my children home for the required time after D&V for example, even though that can be a PITA workwise. Not everyone is that socially responsible

kathy- probably was me - gess/jimjams/baka. Been droning on about it for years

If it were me and I'd made some ill informed sweeping statements and then begun to reconsider the issue thanks to other posters, I think I would say so on the thread. Partly so that people would see that I was willing to take new information on board and partly out of respect and courtesy for others.

I agree with stuffitllama (makes a change ) that people find it hard to assimilate such an inconvienant truth. Also people want to believe in vaccination as a Good Thing with no real grey areas. They don't want to hear the the government's role in all this may leave something to be desired.

I remember recently someone came in and said that after reading the CryShame hearing diaries they were horrified (having been quite pro vax iirc).

I used to be very pro-vax. Until about 2001. (ds1 was born in 1999)

Also agree with Cote in her sensible post about public health and risk assessment.

Most people I know who question current vaccination policy do so because they have found out the hard way that some people do get hurt.

Measles or whatever being dangerous in some cases does not justify sloppy vaccine testing and policy. Nor does it justify the hounding of scientists who raise the red flag when they come across casualties and try to help them.

Was you then Yurt - didn't want to say your other names explicitly in case it was meant to be a secret

Beachcomber - it takes time to assimilate all the info, though, doesn't it? You might not want to commit yourself to saying you were wrong till you'd actually sat down and read the stuff in detail, maybe discussed with other people in RL to get your thoughts in order, etc. It's such a complex and serious issue.

Yurt, you give me hope.

Oohhhhhhhhhhh....

yurt is jimjams. Been wondering what happened to you!

ITA Kathy. I'm not expecting or wanting anyone to say that they were wrong.

Just to admit that the info is interesting or that they are looking at it would be enough. This sort of thing reminds me of breastfeeding threads in a way. You have loads of people who know a lot about a subject being dismissed (and sometimes insulted) by people whose posts clearly show that they are not particularly well informed.

I understand that most people don't know as much about all this as people who have had to find out because their children have been damaged. Just do us the courtesy of reading the thread properly and thinking a little before you post.

What does ITA mean?

ITA = in total agreement.

I was agreeing with what you said about complexity of issues, taking time to assimilate, etc.

Thanks Beachcomber
Agree it would be politer.... It's the way the internet works though - people drop in and out of conversations all the time. My personal rule is to try not to get upset by what people haven't said on a thread - there's usually enough to worry about with what they have IYKWIM! But I do take your point.

totally agree with your point about social responsibility yurt.

I have two questions:

(1) Is it true that a certain diet helps children with autism? I vaguely remember something like this.

(2) In those cases of autism where the child started out normal and then regressed after a trigger and became autistic, can it (even theoretically) be possible to 'bring them back' - i.e. turn back their regression, and 'cure' them of autism?

Gluten/casein free seems to help some.

Some people say yes to the second question, others say no. So perhaps maybe is the best response

Does anyone know anything about this? Scary stuff if it's true.....

yurt is better informed on the subject, but as far as i know, a gluten and dairy free diet can improve many cases of austism - all to do with the leaky gut issues. My ds had bleeding in the gut from 3 months old, and at 6 months we went to see a special [NHS]gastroenterologist [recommended by Yurt!] who recommended ds stay off gluten and dairy until at least 3 years old to avoid issues of autism. It seems to have been a good precautionary measure in my ds's case and he is NT.

cote
my son was regressive and we did change his diet (gluten and casein free and additive free) and it did help - massively.
He remains on the diet 9 years later and it does make a huge difference to him. All part ofthe damage done to his gut ( which is part of the whole MMR damage thingy)
There you are. An answer from the woman with no science.
just very good outcomes
DS regained bowel control and started using the potty again within a week of me starting the diet and eye contact returned shortly after. He soon began talking again too after being silent for over a year and the self harming stopped imediately too.
HTH's

crossed posts yurt. interesting article.

that's amazing pagwatch.

Really ruty? The NHS gastro advised that. I didn't know he was advising that (although it's what we did with ds2 and ds3 anyway!) Wow.

Gluten-free made a big difference to ds1. He turns into a headbanging loon on gluten (and peanuts weirdly). Will drop top the floor and headbang concrete. I didn;t know about the peanuts and couldn't work out why he was repeatedly headbanging. Double checked everything - no gluten- was going on for weeks. Only new food was pure ground organic peanuts. Removed them and the headbanging stopped within 2 days.

yes yurt i have a copy of his letter to my ds's gp to prove it. That shut her up.