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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be cross my ds has measles because other parents didn't vaccinate their children

1000 replies

snickersnack · 08/04/2008 20:51

He's 11 months old, poor little thing . Fortunately he's going to be ok - he got off quite lightly, I think - but it was scary and he was really poorly for a day or so. Spent 10 hours in A&E yesterday while he had chest x-rays, blood tests, IV fluids etc. Now we're just waiting to see if his sister,who's 2, gets it - she's had one dose of MMR already so fingers crossed she's immune.

We live in an area where immunisation rates are among the lowest in the country. Now I have to go and tell all parents of the other babies he's met recently that their children might be at risk as well...

OP posts:
midnightexpress · 11/04/2008 10:29

thanks beachcomber.

ladylush · 11/04/2008 11:48

Ds has not had the MMR (he is nearly 4). I want him to have the single jabs but he gets bad colds on a regular basis and each time I have made an appointment, the date for the jab has coincided with him having a bad cold. I do not want him to be vaccinated if he is not completely well.

The decision whether to vaccinate should be carefully deliberated and parents have the right to research the matter without minus biased interpretations from the government, pushy professionals and judgemental attitudes of other parents who often seem so smug in their belief that they are right. Maybe their decision was right for their child, but that doesn't necessarily make it right for mine.

To the op - I am very sorry your lo was ill with measles and hope he gets better soon.

ladylush · 11/04/2008 11:50

doh - without or minus. Not both!

mhmummy · 11/04/2008 12:47

I would be livid. Agree with those who say it's not just about choice for their own children - it's a choice that affects other children too.

Obviously I didn't enjoy taking my kids for their vaccinations and you just hope it's all going be ok, but when you read the overwhelming evidence - about both MMR and the risk of measles - it was a no-brainer.

colander · 11/04/2008 12:51

I read the original Wakefield paper which started all the media hype. IMO a poorly written and researched paper. Was happy to get both DDs vaccinated.

YANBU, and I hope he feels better.

frazzledbutcalm · 11/04/2008 13:19

All my 4dc has mmr with no ill effect. I agree with colander re wakefield paper, new studies have recently been carried out and no evidence has been found to make a link with autism.
However, i understand some peoples reluctance - when 1 of mine had meningitis jab, she developed a rash which completely covered her body 3 hours later. I took her to gp who said it was completely unrelated!!?? I disagreed entirely. I dont think we have faith in government/gp's over something like this as it often feels like a cover up. One gp told me meningitis jab was not a live vaccine, another gp told me it was live!
I would be annoyed though if mine had caught measles from someone who chose not to vaccinate.

QuintessentialShadows · 11/04/2008 13:25

Where I live now (norway) children have to have followed the immunisation schedule to get a place in nursery.

macdoodle · 11/04/2008 13:34

Since we take so much stock of personal occurences heres mine for balance - my now 15 week old was admitted to hospital with probable viral meningitis when she was 9 weeks old - she was very ill and we very nearly lost her It was four days after her first lot of jabs (quite a lot nowadays for a littlie)....
The terrified mummy part of my brain was holding my (previously bouncing big ex BF baby) deathly ill baby in my arms wondering how on earth she had got so ill and whether the jabs had something to do with it...luckily she made a full recovery and the terrified mummy didn't have to deal with any long term consequences...other than my own terror that I could lose her!!
So the rational part of me could see that the jabs was almost certainly co-incidence and even if not we were very unlucky and the risk of her catching another terrible disease if she wasn't immunised would be unluckier
So don't get us pro vaccs wrong we are all mums we really do understand the fear of getting it wrong....out of interest I wonder how many anti vaccs are pro home births which to my mind is far more risky but I guess thats another thread entirely

belgo · 11/04/2008 13:40

I'm pro home birth and pro vaccination.

Two completely different things IMO.

stillstanding · 11/04/2008 13:54

Beachcomber, you have obviously read extensively on this subject and know the arguments well.

My DS is just one and we are coming up to his MMR jab. I had done some reading around the subject (although in comparison to some of the posters on this thread embarrassingly limited I suspect) and had decided to go for it. I do believe that measles is a terrifying disease and that there is a certain element of social responsibility in vaccinating your children.

However, some of the posts on this thread are pretty shocking and raise the whole question in my head again and my question to you is what conclusion have you ultimately come to in this? Would you advise ALL parents in the UK not to have the MMR? Would that not be irresponsible too? Is the danger of autism not for a very small subset of children and is it possible to know if your child is at risk (e.g. if there was autism in the family)?

I realise that this is a personal decision but am just interested in the ultimate conclusion that you have drawn for responsible parents who just want to do the best for their children.

(Apologies if you have already answered this - I have not yet been able to read the whole thread and all the links that are made in it ... )

stuffitllama · 11/04/2008 14:23

Macdoodle, no the BBC isn't.

stuffitllama · 11/04/2008 14:24

And, Macdoodle, why do you think that reaction was coincidence? I'm so sorry it happened to your daughter. But why do you think it's more rational to put it down to coincidence?

stuffitllama · 11/04/2008 14:28

In Japan when the MMR was withdrawn, the single vaccines were given very close together, sometimes on the same day, not spaced out as Wakefield recommended. Giving them like this could cause even more complications.

Beachcomber · 11/04/2008 14:29

Ok, back to the Japan study. Firstly there is a conflict of interest issue here. Also the funding source for the study was not disclosed.

From this link; here

"One of the co-authors of the Honda paper was Professor Sir Michael Rutter, of the Institute of Psychiatry, who had prepared a draft report for GlaxoSmithKline, one of the defendant drug companies in the UK litigation but who was not retained by them."

Secondly in Japan the MMR was withdrawn but was replaced with single vaccines. It was recommended that the vaccines be given 4 weeks apart but health records show that they were often administered on the same day. Even if the 4 week recommendation had been followed to the letter, it would not be long enough to avoid the synergestic effect of giving the 3 viruses within close proximity. Vaccines would need to be given at yearly intervals in order to achieve this.

See here for more detailDr Wakefield explains why his intial recommendation was to replace MMR with single vaccines given at yearly intervals.

In fact the Honda study demonstrates how open epidemiology can be to interpretation and manipulation. In reality the study can be used as strong evidence that there is a link between vaccines and autism.

Scroll down to last response by Clifford Miller to see full text; although the whole page is worth reading.

"The problems with the Honda/Rutter MMR/autism paper from Japan are only just the start of this. The fact of a dip in autism followed by a large rise when vaccinations increased over 150% in 1993 in Japan (according to official Japanese government figures) is actually evidence of at least two things. It is strong evidence of a causal association between the combination of vaccines and autism-like and related disorders.

It is also evidence of the existence of a dechallenge/rechallenge case series at a population level. Now that is beyond any doubt powerful. The dechallenge occurred by taking MMR away with a positive dip in autism on a population level. This was followed by a rechallenge with a positive rise in autism by reintroducing the single vaccines in place of the MMR. The single vaccines were meant to be administered at 4 week intervals, but according to an NHS publication, Japanese children received them on the same day."

Wakefield makes a similar comment in his response that I link to above;

"In light of the biological nature of viral interactions and the protracted effects on the immune system of measles exposure in particular (either as natural infection or vaccination) it is evident that, although MMR vaccine itself was discontinued in this infant population beyond 1993, for all practical purposes, because of the behaviour of these viruses, children vaccinated according to the recommended schedule were still receiving 'M-M-R' at age one year. In other words the administration of the separate vaccines in close temporal proximity amounts, in biological terms, to overlapping exposure. Such close proximity of exposure is clearly atypical and something that would have been very rare with natural infection to measles, mumps and rubella viruses. The Japanese data are therefore not at odds with the original interpretation and the subsequent recommendations referred to earlier. They are entirely consistent with what is known about the behaviour of these viruses. The authors of the Japanese study make the error of examining MMR as an isolated exposure without giving any consideration to the arguments that have been put forward or the data upon which those arguments were based.

In light of these observations the data could be interpreted as indicating a major influence of the pattern of exposure to these vaccine viruses on ASD incidence in this Japanese population. Moreover, it suggests a possible re-challenge effect of close temporal exposure to these vaccine viruses on ASD incidence at the population level, whereby the exposure has been introduced, removed and then re-introduced. Nonetheless the interpretation by Public Health authorities that this is the 'last word on the subject' and that these data prove that MMR is safe is misleading and suggests a very limited perspective of the issues and a misunderstanding of the previously published concerns that have guided the research of those involved with the examining the safety of measles vaccines. Enthusiasm to exonerate the MMR vaccine is no excuse for misrepresenting the published basis for the safety concerns. "

Sorry for increasingly long posts but 'tis complicated!

Beachcomber · 11/04/2008 14:31

Stuffitllama I take my hat of to you for being able to say the same thing in 2 lines!

stuffitllama · 11/04/2008 14:33

Michael Rutter devoted his life, I understand, to investigating autism. It must have been a galling possibility that this condition was not naturally occurring but a physiological reaction. It's not surprising his instincts led him to the conclusion it must be wrong -- it must be undermining his entire life's work.

stuffitllama · 11/04/2008 14:34

but where's the detail eh?

Beachcomber · 11/04/2008 14:45

Stillstanding you raise an interesting point.

I think that those of us who don't buy the official MMR line just want the whole thing investigated properly and openly so that parents have access to information that allows them to make what could be vital choices for their children's health.

Ok, I'll lay my cards on the table and tell you what my position on all this is (I'm not a medical professional just a well read parent). I think the use of the MMR should be suspended pending proper impartial investigation. I think we should follow Dr Wakefield's advice about using single vaccines (which are not without their own problems) at well spaced intervals. Actually I think mumps and rubella vaccination should be suspended for infants and we should go back to the old system of testing and vaccianting teenagers only if neccessary. I also think we need to rexamine the DTP vaccine both in itself and in how it interacts with MMR. I think we need to stop handling vaccines out like they are sweets and re-evaluate which vaccines are worth it in terms of risk/benefit ratio.

From a more personal point of view I will never allow any child of mine to be vaccinated again in the current conditions. This is my choice for my children, I'm in no position to know what is best for the population as a whole.

Gotta go now, things to do. Will pop back in later as still haven't answered midnight's post re wild/vaccine measles risk.

hattyyellow · 11/04/2008 14:49

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. I would be furious.

I got measles as a baby and my mother was beside herself, I had to be hospitalised and still have scarring on my temples from it. She was talking to me about it recently and I could see even now just how much it had terrifed her. So i can well imagine how you must be feeling having gone through this with your tiny baby.

When my dd's were 10 months old, the area of Surrey we were living in had a major measles outbreak because of parents refusing the MMR. We had just moved there and were also terrified that our children would contract it from the playgroups and coffee mornings I'd innocently gone to. I felt very angry about that.

I do find it infuriating that the number of cases of measles has risen so much and all based on the most spurious, tiny-sampled, non peer-reviewed informal excuse for a study - done by a doctor with a questionable grasp of ethics and which the editor of the Lancet admitted he should never have accepted for publication.

WinkyWinkola · 11/04/2008 15:00

Beachcomber, you make a lot of sense to me.

Pitchounette · 11/04/2008 15:05

Message withdrawn

WinkyWinkola · 11/04/2008 15:07

And if you do get the illness, which for most is a manageable illness, then you have immunity for life.

And you don't get mumps or measles as an adult which is hideous. And it's mumps as an adult that can confer infertility, although rarely.

hattyyellow · 11/04/2008 15:09

How many children each year still contract measles despite having been vaccinated against it?

WinkyWinkola · 11/04/2008 15:18

That should be how many people still get measles every year despite being vaccinated for it? Adults will get it too. Would love to know the answer.

Beeper · 11/04/2008 15:40

My DS got measels from the MMR. He also got a ten week reaction post vaccination and had to be anti-doted by a homepath in order to become well again. He has never had the booster. Vaccinations are very dangerous for some children. You cant blame those who choose not to vaccinate for your child getting measles.

I hope your child recovers soon

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