If you consider yourself to be left wing

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Do you believe there should be limits on migration (as a net figure) and benefits (as total % of GDP/cap per household), or do you think there should be no limits at all?

I’m a centrist, but whenever these topics are discussed I notice people claiming to be left wing become a bit uncomfortable, and usually make aspersions on the person talking about it before trying to move the conversation on. It’s like they know deep down we can’t just allow them to spiral but equally they’re at loathe to actually say it out loud because of how it looks.

It’s not. It’s called practising what you preach.

You’re not the first leftie to want other people to pick up the tab for your principles. It’s called virtue signalling.

lol wtf

I'm left wing mostly, and I still agree with a benefit cap, both the two child and a capped amount of benefit. It always has to be more beneficial to work. However, I think that including child benefit into calculations surrounding the cap should be scrapped. It's exempt otherwise, so just stopping this would make families better off. Immigration if we're talking about actual Immigration and not just veiled racism, for me, shouldn't be stopped, we need workers from abroad in so many industries since Brexit and allowing Eastern Europeans free passage would help fill these again. I do think that migrants accessibility to benefits should be curtailed and the ability to remove their visas if unemployed easier to do. For me, the biggest areas to address are social housing, rent capping, education, mental health services, and care home fees being capped to a reasonable amount.

I would say the same thing, and I would also consider myself centre Left. Many if my family/ friends and acquaintances are much further left. Whether coincidentally or not they are all White, university educated and pretty wealthy. They all more or less believe in open borders. The thing is, they aren't the people who's wages are being undercut by illegal/ low paid workers living in HMO's with lower living costs. And its not just about the characters of White neighbourhood changing. There are communities made up of second and third generation British people of Black and Asian descent who are living in highly overcrowded areas, with limited resources and services who then have to compete for jobs and services with newly arrived immigrants. There are Asian communities in some parts of the country who are established that now have to cope with imported sectarianism from newly arrived immigrants from the Indian subcontinent when they were just fine getting on with their own lives before.
There is also the issue of legal migration draining developing countries of their nurses, doctors, care workers or highly skilled personnel. Just because UK employers don't want to train UK staff, that shouldn't mean they should be allowed to tempt people from other countries with lower wages that are still higher than they would get at home. You cannot have global equality if the West is constantly taking the brightest and best young people from poor countries. Luxury beliefs is a perfect term because it describes beliefs that don't affect the people who have them in any meaningful way.

Ok I am a Londoner ( now live elsewhere) so realise my experience is not universal, but for the love of god educate yourself. Regae music is not Afriican it is Carribean ( have you even heard of Bob Marely?) African and Caribbean culture or Afro- Caribbean culture if you want to be American about it are completely different. Large parts of the Caribbean including Jamaica are part of the Commonwealth therefore Jamaicans are not Africans and are highly likely to be British Citizens quite apart from the fact there are thousands and thousands of British Born Caribbeans ( BBC) who IMO are as British as Fish and Chips ( invented by the Jews in the East End).

and if you think immigration from either the Caribbean or Africa have nothing to do with slavery or colonialism-think on my friend.

I agree, even members of the traditional parties don't always fit the narrative, they're just told how to vote in parliament.

I am also anti Socialist models and state control because I spent a lot of time in Russia and have some distant family who grew up in Socialist countries. So the state control dogma aspect I really cannot stand. I believe in giving communities and humans autonomy and choice and empowering people locally over and above nanny state.

You can’t compare UK socialism to Russian socialism, or Venezuelan or Cuban. They’re poles apart. Democratic Socialism in the UK (or the “hard left” if you want to call it that) advocates state control of vital services like gas and electricity companies and public transport - a policy which the majority of the UK public is in favour of. Right wing media portrays this as ‘Communism’.

Even us lefties recognise that we live in a Capitalist society, but believe that rampant capitalism is damaging (both economically and ecologically) and should be kept in check with methods like a minimum wage, workers’ rights, rent controls etc. You can call that a “nanny state” but I call it protecting our society, especially its most vulnerable members.

@Anonym00se- I am clearly just more Third Way/New Labour in my thinking than you are and that is perfectly fine.

Obviously I am pro workers rights and a living wage, but rent controls and care home fees cap I would question. Rent controls on large corporations with economies of scale or for social housing are one thing. Another thing is screwing over individuals who aren’t rich who bought 1 flat to rent out for their pension.
Personally I think we need to recognise the ageing society question and regulate a social insurance market for care or better even have an NHS style social care that runs separately to the NHS, but is closely linked.

@Araminta1003 Personally I think we need to recognise the ageing society question and regulate a social insurance market for care or better even have an NHS style social care that runs separately to the NHS, but is closely linked.

I completely agree. A ‘National Care Service’ was a Labour policy in Jeremy Corbyn’s manifesto but Starmer has scrapped it.

Because they choose to, remember?

My preference would be free movement of all humans anywhere on earth. Not coming through your private front door. They can buy, rent or build their own private front door.

I can almost hear the wheezing machinations of your thought processes. Denser than a neutron star.

There is a difference between boundaries of homes and national borders.

Nobody is picking up any tab. When I say I would prefer global free movement of people, those people will pick up their own tab.

Are you assuming all migrants are refugees / need benefits / need someone to pick up the tab for them ?

I think anyone should be able to live anywhere on earth. There should be no difference in pay because of where you came from, no way to undercut local wages because the pay is the same. Nations become a much looser concept.

Once again, you haven't thought it through beyond the surface level.

What if they don't have your incredible work ethic?
What if their culture is different to yours?
What if their values are antithetical to yours?
What if their language is different to yours?

Which of the above should be the universal in your one nation planet?
(You're going to say yours aren't you)

That’s just differences between people, and occurs anyway in the same street / village / town etc. never mind country.

Are you just dodging my question (for the 4th time) or do you actually think that is a suitable answer?

Am centre left. I am appalled that many well educated white British can no longer afford to have children in their own country as housing is so expensive and people living in the UK of all walks of life can't afford to eat. Two solutions are reduced migration or state takes over second homes and houses people in them (+ bedroom tax for owned homes and private renting). Neither are easy. Brexit which was meant to stop migration created the small boats. Rwanda is environmentally unfriendly as people have to be flown there. Any reform of the housing sector gets landlords screaming and extending bedroom tax would likely be unpopular.

Two child cap seems sensible for environmental reasons and as people who earn don't get more money for an extra child. Third child can get hand me downs for many things. However all families need to have enough to eat so some change is needed. Parents need to eat to look after their children properly

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr have you seriously never travelled to other countries? They are not in anyway similar to ours and nothing like differences of opinion to people living in a different street. There are countries where the majority believe women are second class citizens who should be stoned if they are raped, and need to ask their husbands permission to do anything. If they became the UK majority under your great idea at least you wouldn't be free to come up with any more crap ideas!

Obviously we're not going to achieve a one nation earth in anyone on here's lifetime (or probably ever) but I wonder what is it about the concept that scares you so much?

Do you really think that isolationism and tribalism will result in better long-term outcomes for the world?

I genuinely think we need to have this "honest conversation" about immigration the right so desire.

So lets have the evidence that immigration actually has the impact you claim on wage, infrastructure, housing costs etc. Rather than just stating them as fact and assuming that Malthusian economics is actually accurate.

NRFT but I’d be much much more worried about climate change right now tbh.
When that really kicks in the current immigration levels are going to look tiny.
Climate change is the single most pressing issue there is, not that you’d know it from any of the main parties- even the sodding Greens!

@ChevyCamaro

We are already seeing the displacement of people due to climate change, the impacts of climate change have also been identified as one of the major causes of the Syrian civil war.

Perhaps you missed the minimum wage that creates a floor below which people cannot be paid. Yet it stops wages from rising at the natural level for the indigenous population.

The reason is expectation. Migrant labour from low paid countries accepts lower wages, above minimum wage but below the normal rate the indigenous population will work for. Because they accept worse living conditions than the indigenous population. That in turn, lowers general living standards because of lower wages and more pressure on resources. More people earning the same or less than before, but using more resources.

In your utopia, that just simply wouldn’t happen because, well because you said so. Even though you have been unable to give a single valid reason for why things would be different in your Mickey mouse make believe universe.

"Yet it stops wages from rising at the natural level for the indigenous population."

Got evidence for this claim? Almost all the studies done show there is very little impact on wages, and when there is, its very short term.

Huh?

Do you believe any old nonsense that people spout.

Climate change is real but isn’t causing any mass migration, nor is it responsible for wars.

Syrian war happened because of climate change? Nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq, funding militias which then became isis, and in turn spilled into Syria. And then became a proxy war between US and Russia.

Climate change mafia are making things up and people are rewriting history to fit the lies.