If you consider yourself to be left wing

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Do you believe there should be limits on migration (as a net figure) and benefits (as total % of GDP/cap per household), or do you think there should be no limits at all?

I’m a centrist, but whenever these topics are discussed I notice people claiming to be left wing become a bit uncomfortable, and usually make aspersions on the person talking about it before trying to move the conversation on. It’s like they know deep down we can’t just allow them to spiral but equally they’re at loathe to actually say it out loud because of how it looks.

The effect is not straightforward and seems to be positive, by raising the economic incentive to train in healthcare.

This paper on a sudden loosening in US nursing visa rules found that nursing enrollment in the Philippines jumped from 90,000 p.a. to 400,000, and the number of nurses working in the Philippines increased. It didn't completely plug the nursing shortages there though, because of low wages. Many of the 'surplus' nurses went to work as nurses in the Philippines, but many went to work in higher paying domestic sectors.

https://voxdev.org/topic/migration-urbanisation/brain-drain-vs-brain-gain-does-international-migration-deplete-poor

Now you could argue that even if NHS worker immigration doesn't deprive the source countries of healthcare workers, it's depriving them of the (eg) would-be engineers who decided to become doctors instead, because of the international earning potential.

But that seems flimsy unless you think that human talent has basically been fully utilized.

I see no evidence for that (though AI may change this very soon). There are billions of people who have the talent and drive to contribute more to the economy (and themselves and their families) but who lack the opportunity to do so. Essentially, a mismatch of talent and opportunity.

Immigration done right addresses that.

What we need to do is drop the squeamishness about discussing good immigration and bad immigration. Then design policies to maximise the former while limiting the latter.

Political difference will still exist on what counts as good and bad immigration, but that's the debate that should be had.

And unlock supply of resources! Housing reform, planning reform, NHS reform, so that supply rises to meet demand.

Otherwise most of the economic benefits of migration get captured by landlords, as owners of the scarce resource, and everyone else is left scratching their heads wondering where these supposed benefits have gone. They've gone to people like me who own property, because the government has imposed an artificial constraint on supply. That's not how the system should be working. It works for the people who vote though, so it stays.

But you must know that this wouldn’t work right? If the uk had say 6 million people moving here per year instead of the (already too high )1 million per year it would just breakdown the system of governance, welfare state and institutions and wouldn’t benefit anyone except the very rich who could exploit cheap labour.
Thatcher believed in Global capitalism’there is no such thing as society’ and you seem to be bent on destroying the earnings potential of the working class.

I'm a former tory, left wing now. I'm embarrassed to admit I used to vote Conservative but we all do stupid things when we are young.

I'm not in favour of open door migration. It's simply not sustainable.

I think there should be legal channels for people to apply for refugee status from outside this country and the process should be quicker. I don't think there should be limits on refugees from persecution/war no. This was in place for refugees from Ukraine and ultimately worked well despite it being utter chaos at the start. There is surely no reason why it can't be don't for all refugees who could then apply once they have reached their first place of safety. Once processed they should be given means to travel here safely, thus stopping the boats, as Rishi would say. Processes must be quicker and where people are not genuine refugees from persecution/war, but are economic illegal migrants then yes they should be sent back to their home country swiftly. All that would still be cheaper per person than spending millions of quid sending 10 people to Rwanda.

I do think there should be limits set on genuine economic migrants as per the Australian points system (as was-do they still have that?) and extra points be to given to social care workers/nurses etc, who should also be able to bring their families (if they have shown they will be working and able to support them-proof of employment/sponsorship by Uk companies etc)

At the moment it would be very difficult to have a cap when we have such huge needs in the NHs & the care sector particularly. It will take us a long time to train the amount doctors, nurses and care workers we need. We also need to get rid of the backlog of people waiting to be processed, have safe & legal routes & stop the boats.if we accomplish all this then yes I think we should look at it.

🙄

@ll09sm as a domicilliary care manager I can tell you that 'unskilled migrants' very much are propping up the care system. And yes it's an underpaid sector. Vastly.

Who do you think sets the rate at which our contract with the local authority is paid? Clue, it's not us. And it's been driven down dramatically in the last 14 years. That's why 3 care companies a week go to the wall. And why there is a crisis in bed blocking etc.

That's so rude.

This! We have an ageing population who for some reason seem to vote Tory, which essentially means they are voting for policies that harm themselves, NHS underfunding,care home fees are astronomical, not enough care staff etc. We had a link to trained EU workers,now thanks to Brexit that has gone.

And hilarious as the Tories have been so great with the country’s cash 🙄

@ReplenishMyCoffee - that poster is unhelpful. The big thing that springs out is “Fraud” so who is going to get all the fraud money back?

It is tax evasion and fraud we should all be focussing on and the black economy. If that were solved we would all be a lot richer.

we shouldn’t include foreign students in the net migration numbers since they return home. If they no longer come, UK unis will close since they top up the funding which hasn’t increased with inflation.

The Tories removed EU freedom of movement hoping the market would correct itself and employers would train people or raise wages. This has happened with jobs like lorry drivers but we need to accept health and social care don’t work well as markets. Reform of social care and a workforce plan for the NHS are needed to fix quite a few systemic issues.

That is most certainly NOT how the USA and Australia work. They will only take highly skilled people for which there are shortages, ie nurses, doctors, electricians etc. These are also people most likely to make net contributions to the countries economy and pay in more than they take.

The vast majority of inflow to the U.K. have ended up in fairly low income jobs bringing dependents that all bring demands on the health services, schools and other public services. The income levels have just been increased substantially (just before the election was called) and which is one reason why the Conservative gov are going to so royally get kicked out this election and why other European countries have just so voted as they have.

More nonsense. Depending on the year, between 35-45% of students remain after study. Unfortunately they are generally not the high skilled ones. Many are those that have come for short post graduate courses of 9 months studying fairly non entity subjects but billed as a "masters". They are frequently junk courses but are a lucrative income stream for universities although some courses are being closed now the idiots in the Home Office have finally worked out what is going on. These students automatically get a 2 year post grad visa to remain and then they can do any job with no income threshold applied. Is just another source of low paid, unskilled labour.

By the way, I know this as one of my teams does recruitment and the applications from students in this pool is vast. It has in reality changed from being a genuine opportunity to move from study into the workplace and then return home, to another scam visa route which some universities have happily partaken in.

How about the estimated £28 billion spaffed on Test & Trace?!

I described a world with unrestricted global free movement. It would not be the case that 6m would just turn up in the former UK, now anyone can go anywhere. In this world I also described removing markets for salaries to prevent employers undercutting anyone. People would go where the work was.

I am Centre to left and think we should have an open economy and no cap when we have massive shortages in some areas.

Benefits should be available to those who are entitled to them. That is not the same as unlimited.

sigh

What is a passport check other than a test of eligibility?
How do you determine who you let in your house? Do you perhaps weigh up if they might steal everything before letting them in?

Just because there are agreements etc does not change the principle of what a border is and how it is governed.
A country should have the right to choose who enters it's borders. It exercises that right as far as it is able, as do people with their households.

Though presumably you wouldn't feel aggrieved if suddenly the government 'agreed' that you must take in 2 migrants because the hotels are getting expensive?

How???
All you accomplish by introducing ceilings is suppressing anyone who functions above the minimum.

Who decides the value of a certain job and what it should earn?
Does the banding get revised in response to changes in demand/supply? Is it fair for the government to tell you one day "oh sorry you get a pay decrease now"?

This thread is about what left wing people think about immigration limits.

I disagree with them globally. Humans are simply humans and should be free to settle anywhere they choose.

“How about the estimated £28 billion spaffed on Test & Trace?!”

Yes, big example of Conservative failure. But we need to be better.
At least we did not end up with semi compulsory Covid vaccinations for all like some other countries. Although they did try with care workers and that is yet another reason for the shortages there, compounded by Brexit. Largely female exploited staff who don’t even get to control their bodies! Because men in suits told them their bodily autonomy is less valuable than the vulnerable pensioner votes that lot is trying to protect.

As another poster said there are obviously massive difference in opinions on all these key issues. I consider myself centre left liberal but I am starting to realise I have some small conservative values too in as far as they protect the more vulnerable. I am also anti Socialist models and state control because I spent a lot of time in Russia and have some distant family who grew up in Socialist countries. So the state control dogma aspect I really cannot stand. I believe in giving communities and humans autonomy and choice and empowering people locally over and above nanny state.

@MarieG10

Your comment about 35% of students remaining after study is a case of Robert Jerrick getting his statistics wrong.Probably deliberately.

"The Home Office’s own figures in its “Migrant journey” report cover a longer period to see if students really stay. That tells us that of the 152,000 people granted a study visa in 2016, only 17 per cent still held valid temporary leave at the end of 2021. Less than 1 per cent had been granted settlement."

https://wonkhe.com/wonk-corner/do-40-per-cent-of-international-students-stay-in-the-uk/

There was apparently meetings back when Theresa May was in the home office and it was discussed if they should remove students from the immigration statistics, TM vetoed it as keeping them in was politically convenient for the Conservatives ( i.e they could blame immigration for poorer public services).

BTW in 2016, the net migration figure was 329,000 ( using the ONS figures). This meant that students made up 46% of the figure. The Tories might have been able to get away with a lot less migrant blaming ( and we might not have had Brexit) if we'd been honest in the debate and said that net migration was about 177 thousand.

The French would tell you that it's because we don't have ID cards (and therefore a strong cash in hand economy) plus our benefits are too high. Pretty much every French or immigration official I've ever met said that to me (I used to work for UK immigration so have met lots of them).

That alongside the fact that French police are incredibly racist in my experience. They said quite a few things I've never actually heard from someone in the UK.

Plus the fact that most will speak English if they have a second language so that is also a factor.

Anywhere.... except your house.

How convenient.

Why should people emigrate to your house - that’s absurd.