Pointless NHS Roles

[ChanelNoFive]

I am an ex-NHS worker. (Department administrator)

Is it unreasonable to think there are so many pointless corporate/non-clinical roles within the NHS. Mainly high up and middle management roles. Examples:

• Events organisers
• Workforce & Organisational Development Leads
• Strategy Leads
• PR/Photographers/Marketing
• Improvement and Culture/Diversity teams
• Roster coordinators
• PMO

Obviously there are non-clinical roles that are essential for the runnings of the NHS. But are a lot of them really needed? I remember seeing all the high up corporate staff thinking “what exactly do you actually do?”

Misogyny like putting men on women-only wards and calling women ‘people with a cervix’? Not to mention asking men if they could be pregnant?

I’m sure people of colour are like everyone else, in wanting more doctors and nurses - and the best people doing the job so that they and their families have the best chance at going home healthy.

Besides which there could hardly be more ‘diversity’ (a word which seems to only ever refer to skin colour) in the NHS. My daughter was in 3 different hospitals recently and not a single nurse we saw was white, and only one doctor. Across all three.

On the other hand my learning disabled/ ASD son had to go to A+E and there was ZERO accommodation made for him and his challenges. Diversity/ inclusion my ass.

Why do nurses get paid a pittance and a ‘diversity manager’ can be on 100k? It’s insanity.

There are diversity managers on Band 9? Can you post a link?

ETA You’re not wrong about nurses (and paramedics) being woefully under-graded though.

I definitely don’t think you understand the role of a comms team. Who do your think made sure the national press were able to see what was really happening on wards during covid? Comms teams have to liaise with the media for all sorts of reasons - negative stories when there are cyber attacks, negligence (I wouldnt have fancied being in the media team around the Lucy letby case for example) through to showing where research is making it through to new treatment options (creating new enquiries from patients in need).

They also need to update patients and public if there are issues like excessive numbers in A&E so patients can make a measured decision about attending. Or update info all through covid with new guidance as it came so that patients and staff understood what was happening.

Comms teams are really vital to the mix.

Regarding marketing, I’ve only known that where there is a private healthcare offer in the hospital - and as their job is to generate income for the struts they’re competing with massive private hospitals with much bigger budgets.

I think workforce leads are definitely required, they develop rostering programmes, safe staffing intiatives, international nurse recruits (which is huge atm) auditting, training department leaders.

Strategy again, in huge trusts it takes a lot of work planning ways to streamline services/enhance patient experience etc.

My department alone has a head of nursing, 2 deputy heads of nursing, 2 operational matrons and 2 non clinical matrons. All attending the same meetings at the same times which could be done by 2/3 people. Very top heavy

@WomensRightsRenegade you're just showing the depth of your lack of knowledge here.

Diversity is not about skin colour - because British people come in all colours. It is however about cultural background and religion, because someone's culture and faith can have a decisive influence on the kinds of treatments they will find acceptable (and therefore will comply with, thereby promoting recovery). the And I am sorry your DS had such a bad experience in A&E, but I work in a mental health Trust and our diversity team absolutely has neurodiversity as part of its brief; it also has the LGBT envelope. Their services also do not just apply to patients, they apply to staff; they are there to ensure that recruitment processes are fair and that applicants from all background (neurodiverse, LGBT, disabled, from different countries and cultures) have a fair chance at getting the job.

They're a small team and only one of them is Band 7, so I too would be very interested in seeing a Band 9 post for a diversity manager - I suspect it is mythical.

When even a consultant's P.A has a P.A you know that it is all a bad bloody joke.

It's about the scope of the responsibility. Sure clinicians have responsibility for the patients in front of them, but the senior managers have responsibility for the well-being of 10,000 staff (in my trust) and 50,000 patients who are currently in our beds or in our clinics today, plus the 500,000 or so who will pass through our hospital this week. We're not even a big trust btw.
My partners job in the ICB is to manage the health of the whole county's population - about 3 million people.

Personally I'm happy to just have to think about the patients I'll see in my out patients clinic tomorrow - whose presence has been dealt with by our admin team. And the patients who are on my wards tonight (where the beds are being managed by our unit manager and admin team).

And where does that happen? Because where I work, the consultants have to share a PA with at least 3 other consultants, they don't get their own. Even our directors have to share PAs.

My own PA 🤯😱. Where is such a luxury?

Yabu. Seems like a very naive and shortsighted opinion to me, all organisations have a level of administrative/managerial/project work needed. The NHS wouldn't exist on only clinical time.

Full disclosure - I’m a senior NHS manager. This thread has been interesting to read!

I’ve worked in and around the corporate centre of NHS Trusts for 20+ years. Now I’m at the level immediately below the Board, and it’s through choice that I’m not on the Board itself. But I’ve worked in operational services as a manager, close to the front line. I’ve never worked outside a Trust (eg for a CCG etc).

We employ 10,000+ staff, have a budget of £1bn. Those two facts also mean that we need lots of managers. Add in the fact that it’s public money, that the services we provide are as regulated as can be and are literally life and death, and you can see we need even more. Yes there are people whose jobs involve policy development, equality and diversity, and many other things that people might assume could be got rid of. But honestly I’ve yet to come across a valueless role, and I’m not going to assume that any are valueless based on anecdote or job title.

Anyone who thinks that we should have fewer managers should think about it next time they go to hospital. Who arranges their appointment? Who welcomes them at reception? Who makes sure that the clinicians they see are present, trained, safe to treat them? Who makes sure that the buildings are safe, that the staff get paid and that the computers work? Managers or administrative staff all. And all managing on budgets nowhere near big enough to cope with demand.

What I do think is an issue are people who are shit at their jobs, whatever those jobs might be. There are nurses, doctors, therapists and a thousand types of managers who I’ve come across who are lazy, incompetent or actively malevolent. That’s a different story though.

Maybe I should do an AMA…

I was in a hospital last week and what shocked me was the lack of communication between departments and I could see the system the staff were using was ancient because of the interface.
They didn't seem to know what left and right hands were doing...did not give confidence

Clinician or not, they were completely, and I mean, utterly useless. The very definition of a chocolate fireguard. You don't need to communicate with the surgeon to know that a self press morphine pump for 4 limb poly trauma is a complete fucking waste of time.

Diversity managers always get it in the neck as it's seen as a "woke" position, the NHS is full of non-British yada yada. I'm gender critical so I find myself rolling my eyes at some of the stuff that comes out of our EDI team. But I'm also disabled and benefit hugely from their role in promoting equality equity and awareness.

During covid, they played an absolutely vital role in supporting staff from non-white backgrounds to make decisions re the vaccine.

And right now, they are helping people who are struggling with the war in Palestine. I work with Jewish and Muslim staff, both groups are feeling exposed and worried.

True OP. There's no need for diversity-based staff or training if you ask me. The alarming stats around, for example, Black maternal death rates is probably something I imagined in a fever dream in 1996.

I did both jobs in my career, but initially it was one role combining both and it worked perfectly well without the need for a second person on the same grade that in all honesty added very little to how the team ran, in my area these are highly trained staff from the same profession and it seems a total waste them not actually having patient contact, not to mention the cost and you wonder where the money goes in the health service

Multiple £100k pa director of paperclips roles - bloody insane!

It’s this kind of nonsense that I find so frustrating.

My organisation (10,000+ staff, £1bn budget) has seven executive directors on its Board, and I think five other staff on £100k+ (excluding Consultant doctors). How many do you think it should have?

The consultant who looks after me doesn't even have a secretary, a junior colleague or trainee, never mind a PA. She types my GP letter out while I am in her clinic. The poor woman looks exhausted, but she is fantastic and I am lucky to be under her care.

That would be great if you had the time!

It's incredibly frustrating. It's as if people want to believe the bullshit as a justification for how they vote.

No.

The fact that 1 in 12 NHS workers have experienced some degree of sexual harassment or assault whilst at work from the public and also their colleagues. So the NHS has had to develop a sexual safety charter that Trusts now need to role out, implement and deliver education on.

The ignorance you are showing around what culture and diversity actually means in the context of patient care is massive. You also seem to have an inability to understand that not all Trust’s have a diverse workforce. I’m sorry your son had that experience. That’s exactly why diversity leads are required…..to drive policy changes that mean accommodations and reasonable adjustments are put in place and to improve understanding and awareness amongst the workforce. I’d advise contacting PALS and sharing your experience instead of moaning about it online and using it to poorly demonstrate why diversity leads aren’t required.

Well I can tell you the NHS often not a safe place for black women and my experience is not unique. A little research will enlighten you.