Pointless NHS Roles

[ChanelNoFive]

I am an ex-NHS worker. (Department administrator)

Is it unreasonable to think there are so many pointless corporate/non-clinical roles within the NHS. Mainly high up and middle management roles. Examples:

• Events organisers
• Workforce & Organisational Development Leads
• Strategy Leads
• PR/Photographers/Marketing
• Improvement and Culture/Diversity teams
• Roster coordinators
• PMO

Obviously there are non-clinical roles that are essential for the runnings of the NHS. But are a lot of them really needed? I remember seeing all the high up corporate staff thinking “what exactly do you actually do?”

It’s not the issue that there are these roles it’s how many people are doing these roles

The wasted time in meetings discussing the same things over and over again is mind blowing

it’s NHS culture it excels in taking forever to make changes and as soon as the changes are made the meetings start for the next stage of changes

just let us get on with our jobs ffs and provide the best service

I hate our team management meetings with a passion so much time wasted patting each other on the back for doing such a great job

I think the lack of strategic planning is likely part of the reason it's a wreck, so keep them. I'm not sure why you wouldn't need a roster team. Roster development is increasingly complex as employment law and entitlements change. Improving culture? Well, the culture is awful, which is why staff leave. It's a huge multi-level organisation, the biggest employer in the country, maybe? I think you're viewing it through a very simplified, cottage industry mindset. YABU.

The same happens with AHPs. There are some specialist B7 roles in areas such as stroke, neurology, Paediatrics. But in every team I've worked in over the last 16 years in order to progress past B6 you need to give up clinical work.

They don't see the need for HR? Or PR /comms, to handle media queries? Or project managers to manage introducing new systems? Should those roles be done by clinicians instead? Or should we just not bother with them at all? Lots of people seem to think a large hospital either runs itself, or can be run by a couple of matrons doing one management day a week.

I'm a senior manager in the NHS. Very niche but important area. If anyone heard my job title they'd think I could be removed and the money saved. What they don't realise is that the work I do affects nearly every person in this country and saves many many lower banded people from needing to be employed as I am able to make decisions once rather than they be made 42 times by 42 people in ICBs.

Often things seem pointless until you know more about them.

I do agree that some people in the NHS management structure should be managed out, but my trust is useless at HR and people management. For example, we have no probation period. So you employ someone and they are shit and you are stuck with them. HR then give no support to manage them out

Don’t know about the NHS but I briefly worked for a local authority and it was so upsetting how short the front line were and how fat the back office was.

I did practically nothing for 8 months. I was the most demoralised I’ve ever been.

It was frankly disgraceful and my leftie sensibilities found it very upsetting.

I work in project management in another type of public sector organisation. You would not believe the absolute shite we deal with behind the scenes so that front line workers have the time and space and resources to get on with their jobs. If you got rid of us you'd be paying an external consultancy double what we get to do maybe half as good a job, if you're lucky.

I honestly don't think most people know how much shit the middle and senior managers keep fro the doors of clinicians!!

Sooooo many middle managers in my trust doing busy work. Jumping from meeting to meeting, meeting eachother. Got to dash to next meeting. Zero work product. Sooo depressing. Mostly people doing a shit job and getting moved on on the merry go round.

We need

More clinicians
Ruthlessly efficient and well paid admin teams

Everything else is infuriating WASTE

Perversely, the shit that you mention that management protect the clinicians from comes from...... other managers. Face palm.

Who do you suggest does the accounting? Should Dr's leave theatre to bung a few numbers in a spreadsheet?

Who negotiates with government for extra money to deliver services, should the ward matron do it on her tea break?

Who does comms for huge national Public Health campaigns? Should the physio grab a camera in their lunch break?

Who recruits and ensure staff stay and are set up on systems? Who buys the system they use?

Who negotiates with big Pharma companies to get the best deals for drugs?

Who trains all those clinicians and admin staff to use the systems?

Who ensure people are paid on time?

Who helps to ensure there is no postcode lottery of services?

Clinicians?

@MBappse do you really think hospital trusts would be fine with just clinicians plus people who can type letters / make phone calls / create spreadsheets?

Yeah, I was going to say that!

I have a friend who works as a 'Lead' in the NHS and they freely admit to doing nothing all day (WFH role).

They say Management are the same or off sick or burned out and paralysed by bureaucracy.

If the IT worked and systems talked to each other then there would be less need for admin staff.

I've no doubt that there could be some streamlining and there are roles that aren't needed in some trusts. But posts like this really demonstrate people's lack of understanding of what is involved in keeping a workplace of thousands of people who deal with the public in jobs where risk is high.

This. It's so easy to say roles are not needed but most actually are. The issue is if the people in the roles are achieving what they are meant to and if roles are being duplicated. Duplication because of organisational change is a big issue for large organisations in the public sector.

"Have you not seen the damming reports on sexual harassment and misogyny within the NHS?"

Yes. IMO nothing has improved in the nearly 40 years I worked in the NHS, indeed in many ways it seems to have got worse. So they don't appear to be doing a very good job. In spite of being paid substantial salaries.

My work got rid of huge chunks of these non jobs and it didn't impact the organisation at all, if anything it just meant fewer silly emails from people tinkering about and navel gazing while the rest of us were trying to work damn hard.

This discussion is really interesting as the opposite seems to be true. Time and time and time again research shows that more - not fewer - managers are needed in the NHS. The nhs is massively under managed compared to other organisations. https://www.nhsconfed.org/articles/are-there-too-many-nhs-managers

I agree that good managers are very important and necessary. The quality and ability of many managers in the NHs is questionable. Being incompetently managed by someone who has absolutely no clue about the clinical area I work in or what the job I do entails is really frustrating and annoying. In some cases it is dangerous.

i think its safe to say that there are roles withing many government services that are not really necessary.

i work for a public emergency service and the bosses and bigwigs outnumber the actual staff massively.

I recently took my DM to an out patient's appointment. A member of staff came into the clinic and announced she was counting the number of hand sanitisers they had. I kid you not!

It's something that needs tackling before throwing more money at the NHS, it's not just lack of sufficient funds, it's wholesale mismanagement and trendy job creation.

PR/Photographers/Marketing - See income generation above. A few interns on work experience won't cut it any more, you need professionals. Our PR/Photography/Marketing team for a Trust about 4,000 strong comprises 3.5 WTE, only one of whom is a Band 7.

Wow @pointythings I used to work for an NHS trust that was a lot smaller and we had 6 FT staff in our comms dept. Including two Band 7s. The team is even bigger now, about 8.5 FTE or maybe more. I do think comms is important (obviously!) but I think that's a lot. Tbh one of the reasons I left was that there were comms tasks we ought to have been doing, but were not allowed to (it's not us that does that") or didn't have time bc of nonsense vanity projects we had to action for senior staff. So I do see the frustration.