To find what’s happened to Michael Mosley quite anxiety provoking

[Glasto73lover]

It’s that idea of never really knowing what’s going to happen- the idea that we walk such a fine line in life. If you think too much about it, you probably wouldn’t leave the house.!

A close family member died suddenly and tragically a decade ago - literally dropped dead at home age 48 - something went pop in their head. So you genuinely don’t know when your time is up.

It’s that idea of a chain of consequence that can go so horribly wrong too- people always say ‘oh but you could get hit by a bus’ - stuff like this actually makes me really anxious. So many what ifs.

For Michael Moseley - a chain of probably inconsequential decisions may have led to his death- not having a phone on him, choosing to undertake a walk that in the U.K. is nothing but in that heat, was devastating and probably caused his death.

It makes me anxious that I won’t know if I am making those decisions - am I making sense? I think as I have got older, I have become more anxious and risk averse (thanks menopause) and as a result, you could end up not leaving the house. How do you choose a sensible approach? Not too much risk but some!

But I also want to live my life too!! I guess I find incidents like this quite difficult!

I guess always having a phone, not undertaking walks in intense heat in an unfamiliar place etc are the common sense points that will come out of this tragedy.

Aibu to find it anxiety provoking tho?!

Somebody upthread mentioned a subject called “Human Factors”, something that comes comes up a lot these days in accident investigations and reports…current thinking is it always pays to try and find out why a decision was made to stop such an accident happening again, rather than just jumping in thinking somebody was stupid or foolish, case closed. This C&P might be of interest.

“The main purpose for investigating an event should be to understand why it happened, not to search for the person(s) responsible. It is not the attribution of blame, but rather the analysis of behaviours, decisions and the underlying factors that help us to understand why an event occurred.
Most people don’t set out to make an error or cause an accident – they just want to get the work done. Generally, people do what they consider to be reasonable at the time – given their knowledge, objectives, mental model, available time and resources etc. “

https://humanfactors101.com/topics/human-factors-in-investigations/

Regardless of it all shit happens in life.

We can plan and prepare and make what we hope are sensible health decisions. I think there is so much talk about this because people are shocked that this has happened to a "health guru" as if he should have known better.

Someone mentioned earlier that people in hot countries live and work - well yes they do but this is why there is siesta time. I see people in the UK out jogging even when we get really hot weather. What are they thinking? We need to respect our environment.

Sailing is a great example of how a small series of mishaps can result in something going dramatically awry, hence it's good practice amongst skippers- and even commercial ships' crews- to sit down and have a no blame debrief about what went wrong and how to avoid it next time after any actual or potential mishap.

Note the "no blame" bit and the lack of the "Oh well, I wouldn't be so stupid as to do that" attitude. Pride goes before a fall.

Merchant Navy or Royal Navy sailor? My husband was at sea in the merchant fleet and I went with him (early 70's to late 80's) It was absolutely possible to send radio telegrams and make radio phone calls from and to anywhere in the marine world. Of course bad weather sometimes interrupted the signal and it was expensive, but ships were certainly not competely out of contact.

I think she probably meant out of contact for personal reassurance .

I’m not sure it would have been usual to send the “Daddy I’ve got a wobbly tooth “ type messsges that we are constantly checking in with today.

Commercial Aviation is similar..debrief after every flight - what if anything went wrong, what could have been done better..try not to apportion blame.

As far as the subject of this thread goes as some have pointed out it’s possible MM thought he was about to partake in a short walk - if there’s any deep investigation of the human factors behind this one question will be what was his “mental model” of what he was about to do.

If he genuinely thought he was just heading off on a v short walk some of his decisions some here are criticizing him for would have made sense to him - that’s why in some industries you share/cross check your mental model and plan with team members before actually taking action.

Another point is there’s a lot of talk of map reading and access to a map but some people, even some people with lots and lots of qualifications, can be absolutely pants at relating what they see on a screen/sheet of paper with what is visible to the eye.

no but the discussion (and her post) are about contact as a safety issue.

I definitely don't blame him or think he's stupid.. I think most of these frustrated comments come from a good place because we liked him so much and are upset. If it was someone we weren't bothered about there wouldn't be all this analysis. Just wish it had been different

Onedaystronger , I used to work as a stroke nurse, from what I was told in training it’s the risk of bleeding in the brain when blood pressure gets too high during vigorous exercise. I was told it’s more common in men over 40 who suddenly start really going for it exercise wise. I think Mosley looked into the benefits of short bursts of really vigorous exercise, which I believe Andrew Marr blames for his stroke.

At lot of places do not have a reliable mobile phone signal, and that is even within the UK.
I have just returned from a UK holiday, and no our rental accommodation did not have reliable phone signal.
However, if you have a phone, it is maybe a good idea to take one with you, I think.
Several reports have suggested MM was feeling a bit unwell, when he made the decision to return to his villa by foot. Maybe he was already suffering from the heat stroke, which apparantly makes one confused.
In otherwords, instead of looking at it, as his decisions led to his death, maybe the heat was making him make unwise decisions.

@headstone
Yes, this happened to my DH, after lsoing his job, age 60. I always say 'he did an Andrew Marr', etc.
Fortunately not my DH was not as serious, having a subarachnoid hemorrhage.

Disturbia81, I agree with that, I can’t stop thinking about it, how a few silly mistakes can be made on one hot afternoon and then someone as wonderful as Mosley is lost forever.
someone above said that people live and work in these conditions, which is true but the ones working outside will be younger and adapted to the conditions. Also there are a lot of deaths of migrant construction workers in the Middle East, many will be due to heat exhaustion.

@TorroFerney

Same as I posted previously, it's to help us believe that we have some control when we really have none.

Of course we have control. There is no "devine" body with our names written into a calendar as to how and when we're going to die! Yes, some have no control, i.e. get run over by a runaway bus, or a cancer without a known cause. But the vast majority can make choices which will ultimately influence lifespan. To say that we have no control at all is ridiculous.

Quite. Not everyone lives and works in the hot conditions, particularly older people. If they don't take precautions, many die.

We don't have as much control as people would like think with regard to disease though. Some risks can be reduced but genetics, external factors such as viruses, old age, random DNA mutations and just bad luck are involved most of the time. Humans are not designed to live for ever.

@kc431

I’ve done that. But going out in blazing midday heat - millions of people do this, not just on holiday but in many countries construction workers and farmers have to work in these temperatures and do not die.

I really hot countries, entire construction sites close down over the hottest months. In agriculture, workers are out in the fields in the mornings and evenings when it's cooler. There's a reason that hot countries have siestas - they have time off during the hottest parts of the day but start work sooner and finish later in the cooler parts of the day.

As I said, the majority DO have some level of control. It's a minority of people who die from childhood cancers, or other diseases with no known lifestyle causes, or from genetics that can't be mitigated, or from truly random acts outside their control. To say we've no control, for the majority of people, is completely untrue. And, no, of course we're not going to live forever, but it IS within our control to mitigate risks, make healthy lifestyle choices, etc. To say we have no control is just abdicating all responsibility for ourselves and our loved ones.

He went on what should have been a 30 minute walk to the bay in 35 degree heat wearing loose clothes, a hat, an umbrella and with a water bottle.
I don’t think he had any reason to think this was unreasonable.
You do realise the heatwave we had in 2022 was a week at nearly 40 degrees in the south of England.

It was me that mentioned people in hotter countries live and work in hot weather - and I can assure you that there are countries where people don't have siesta time. A hotter country doesn't necessarily mean it is roasting hot every single day, but many countries have temps in the 30 - 40 degree range and people function just as normal.

No, that's not unreasonable at all - I do it myself often in summer, usually without a hat, never an umbrella, or a water bottle, and I'm in my 60s.

@milveycrohn
"In otherwords, instead of looking at it, as his decisions led to his death, maybe the heat was making him make unwise decisions."
I think that's an excellent point and beautifully made.

So true, so many died from heat building the Qatar world cup stadiums and they had lived their lives in hot countries. I know people who lived there and the school day finished by 1pm to avoid the heat. Air con everywhere. People didn't go out in sun in the heat of the day unless for very quick moving A to B
I lived in the ME myself but wasn't as hot as qatar, I love walking but was warned never to go in heat of the day. I went to some ruins once in my 20s and nearly passed out, the heat/sun bounces off the light rocks which makes it worse. The time I got sunstroke I wasn't even moving, just by a pool there.
I was a silly Brit who'd never really been into sunbathing and tanning and just drank up all the sun I could when I first arrived, like I'd been starved of it in the UK. The family I was staying with thought I was mad. It was a harsh lesson but has stuck with me, the sun is not to be fucked with

What people do in 'hot countries' seems pretty irrelevant to Dr M's situation

He had arrived from the UK the previous day where the temperature was around 16 degrees

On the mountain slopes the temperature was nearer to 50 degrees than 40 degrees
and there had been a meteorological warning for high temperature that morning

So not a resident of a 'hot country' And not acclimatised to the huge jump of 35 degrees between UK and Symi

Another thing that walkers should consider carrying is a whistle. You might not be able to see people, or you - if weakened and dehydrated - you can't keep shouting. But blowing a whistle can attract attention.

Yes I agree with this - and actually I think it’s why the MM tragedy has struck everyone so much. He was a kind of poster boy for the “ I can take control of this mortality thing” movement.

I don’t mean to deride the enormous assistance he gave to people with pre diabetes etc. But I think the way the public embrace this type of advice falls in the same category as that whole fish oil thing years back. Robert Winston, among others, discussed how fish oils could help with certain cognitive issues. That prompted people to start stuffing children, pregnant women etc with fish oil tablets in the bid to build a super brain.

Yes, there are things we can do that tend towards promoting health, but that doesn’t guarantee we will pass through the pearly gates in the precise ranking order of average step counts or level of commitment to a Mediterranean diet. But the modern mindset is so geared towards trying to control the uncontrollable that the relatively limited impact of this in the whole mix of genes, chance, disease etc doesn’t sink in. It’s as if buying a peloton should come with a certificate of five years years stay of execution issued by the Grim Reaper.