To find what’s happened to Michael Mosley quite anxiety provoking

[Glasto73lover]

It’s that idea of never really knowing what’s going to happen- the idea that we walk such a fine line in life. If you think too much about it, you probably wouldn’t leave the house.!

A close family member died suddenly and tragically a decade ago - literally dropped dead at home age 48 - something went pop in their head. So you genuinely don’t know when your time is up.

It’s that idea of a chain of consequence that can go so horribly wrong too- people always say ‘oh but you could get hit by a bus’ - stuff like this actually makes me really anxious. So many what ifs.

For Michael Moseley - a chain of probably inconsequential decisions may have led to his death- not having a phone on him, choosing to undertake a walk that in the U.K. is nothing but in that heat, was devastating and probably caused his death.

It makes me anxious that I won’t know if I am making those decisions - am I making sense? I think as I have got older, I have become more anxious and risk averse (thanks menopause) and as a result, you could end up not leaving the house. How do you choose a sensible approach? Not too much risk but some!

But I also want to live my life too!! I guess I find incidents like this quite difficult!

I guess always having a phone, not undertaking walks in intense heat in an unfamiliar place etc are the common sense points that will come out of this tragedy.

Aibu to find it anxiety provoking tho?!

Firstly I hope his family will be taking comfort in the outpouring of lovely stories that I have seen in the media.

But a few statistics in the following post so thought I should warn. Also- it’s long!

If you collapse, being able to survive or if you suffer long-term damage, will be down to whether someone notices and rescues you.

I am campaigning for gaps to be kept between the floor and the bottom of the toilet doors. Small design detail that saves lots of lives when you need it.

None of the government’s new toilet designs (in every non domestic building and refurbishments) from October specify door gaps. They specify every door should be able to be opened from the outside in an emergency but there is no point if you can’t see the person, so don’t know if they have collapsed. They also specify acoustic deadening.

If you’re out and about or at work and feel nauseous/ill you are likely to head to the toilet.
There are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes.
There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet because of the physiological strain on the body.

Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. To put it into perspective there are around 9 children with epilepsy in an average secondary school.

There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes.

A recent government report noted 80% of the thousands of incidents of drink spiking happen in public places, usually in bars and clubs, mainly to women, average age 26.

Prevention of sexual assaults is also key.
In any space that becomes private, more offences are likely to take place. In Parliament it was discussed that there was at least 1 rape inside a school premises each day (over 600 in a 3 year period). The data, collected by the BBC, mentions an example occurring in a private cupboard. This was in 2015, before many schools decided to change their toilet designs to fully enclosed and mixed sex. There is no available data on these new toilet designs but, teachers and pupils are reporting many problems with drug dealing, dirt and sex. The toilet door gaps are vital for safeguarding to help prevent activities that stop pupils, especially girls, going to the toilet. There are known problems of girls avoiding toilets and getting urinary infections or missing school. This legislation does not affect schools but they have been at the ‘coalface’ of new experimental toilet designs so it a good demonstration of what goes wrong.

A quick internet search brings up the disproportionate number of sexual assaults and rapes that happen to able bodied and disabled women and girls in disabled toilets in this country which are obviously mixed sex and fully enclosed toilets, often in very public places such as busy train stations and shopping centres.

More problems with toilets with enclosed full height doors are:

• Ventilation is decreased so there’s a higher risk of disease spread.
• Evacuation times are greatly increased as a responder can’t tell quickly if stalls are occupied.
• Hygiene is compromised as a mop can’t go underneath the doors nor floor be washed down. It is awkward to enter the cubicle with a mop and detritus ends up on the partition corners.
• Doors are more likely to get stuck/warped and the cubicle out of action.
• People are more likely to engage in illegal activities (drugs) or self harm if they are in a private space.
• The length of time in a cubicle is increased, especially if the wash basin is in there so queues are longer.
• Occupants can’t see if anyone is lying in wait outside their cubicle if they are feeling vulnerable.

Why have toilet cubicle door gaps disappeared from the new public toilet designs?

There are many articles and videos on why we have gaps under and over toilet doors - so it is worrying these have been ignored. The initial government consultation that was publicised several years ago led to Stonewall coordinating a response and very effectively dominating the results. There is nothing wrong with this as such but the policy goals that were created from the initial consultation concentrated on mixed sex ‘universal’ toilets and privacy because of toilets being mixed sex. The concepts of mixed sex toilets have then been applied to the single sex designs without anyone joining the dots as to why the gaps are there.

Apologies for the long post but one of the reasons I am so passionate about this is I did save a young girl who had collapsed, by noticing she had because of a toilet door gap. She was in very public block of toilets and had already collapsed and was silent. I helped get her breathing properly again.

Unfortunately no politician has got back to me when I have tried to raise this, hence me raising this here. I have sent a lot of research to lots of people. No journalist has ran with it.

It’s something I hope will get into people’s minds who have any kind of influence. So I hope people won’t mind me adding this post to a thread about a very inspirational man but he made a point about getting messages out. So I am trying to do that as much as possible.

Mind the gap - it saves lives.

@crackofdoom

I've got lost in Greece before. Southern Europe is often a whole different kind of walking- limestone country is treacherous

I visited years back and would agree that comment fits with my impression of getting around on that island, it’s often not the hills/gradients that get you, it’s the footing on the rocks if you go off an obvious track.

As for temperatures it’s maybe worth remembering people, even quite average types with quite average body shapes, even Brits on holidays around the med have been known to partake in sport at >35 Celsius (e.g. cycling) for extended periods, it’s not that outrageous if you know what you are doing.

What you really need to be aware of is you really need to keep loaded up with water (I see a pp mentioned this upthread).

Last time I looked (open to correction) I think the guidelines for hot/very hot conditions were at the very very least 1 liter per hour (that’s equivalent to two standard bike bidons) and most importantly start drinking water right from the get go of starting to exercise, don’t wait until you get thirsty. In simple terms you drink by the clock, rather than drinking when you feel the need.

One small supermarket sized bottle isn’t going to get you far in 40 Celsius.

I totally agree. I've had to accept that very hard, life changing health conditions have happened to me, but for the better in some ways as they have made me much more compassionate and empathetic. It's not great or really realistic to go through life thinking you are invincible to all life's woes. If you are fortunate enough to live to old age with no major health problems, then consider yourself very fortunate. But I think good advice is that you should never say never, nor it won't happen to me.

Surely when people say 'His time was up' they are believing that we have no control over our behaviour and wellbeing and death is pre-determined by some set point?

It's a fatalistic attitude, along with 'what will be, will be'.
As if we are passive and controlled by something beyond our own control.

It probably comes from the time when people didn't understand disease (and prevention) and also believe in some 'higher authority' (like a religion) that decided when we'd die.

I’ve posted elsewhere about his wife describing him as adventurous and that being part of what made him special . He had an impact precisely because he pushed boundaries . We need people like him in the world just as much as we need those who are more cautious . She knew exactly who he was and that at some point it might go wrong because it’s impossible to live with someone like that and not.

OP try not to be anxious , because you are cautious you are highly unlikely to find yourself in the same predicament . Live your life ,take informed sensible precautions and don’t miss opportunities.

But this is not really the point is it? (this is aimed at the psych we have here @WoodForTreesSeeing )

Or is it?

I think everyone would agree that some unfortunate incidents are true 'accidents' that can't be foreseen and therefore mitigated. But others are a consequence of poor decisions , especially when the risk factors point very clearly to a bad outcome.

It's like when someone climbs a mountain in the wrong footwear and clothing, with no compass, no GPS, no food or enough water (they do that in the Lakes, Scotland, etc) and don't allow for a change in weather or their lack of experience.

And yes, equally, someone who is very well equipped can slip, fall and die.

But there's a difference between doing your best to ensure you'll be safe and taking a cavalier attitude where you don't even prepare or recognise risks.

There are companies who provide risk control training for people going into dangerous conditions (overseas.) They are run by former MI5 M16 and Special Forces. They can't guarantee they will be safe, but they will be safer than someone never having had some training.

You're 52! I'm 58 and take my phone with me absolutely everywhere.

I understand completely OP. I often used to say this to my friend as sometimes at night I'd choose to take a longer drive home as I was listening to music and I'd think I wonder if I'll crash now, when I wouldn't have if I'd just have driven straight home.

Dr Mosley has really played on my mind a lot. A few things conspired and an otherwise healthy man ended up dead at such a young age, after all he'd done to try to prolong his life. The irony is stark.

It's the climate crisis. Do you not understand that the weather is becoming more extreme everywhere? For us in the UK that means more wind, rain and storms. You will get more floods and fires, lucky us eh

He was not thinking and now his family suffer.
We all have some responsibility to take care of ourselves because we are a very valuable resource for our spouse and children.

Time waits for no man.
People die - important people die, and the World goes on.

We don'tknow if he had a medical episode.
Phones are too hot to work in Greece, I heard, so maybe leaving his in the fridge is not so bad but to hike in heat, in rugged and isolated topography, was risky.

Have to admit I felt some of this too.

I keep thinking of his poor wife coming home from that 'holiday' alone when he should have been with her...not like they even got to enjoy a final lovely holiday together as he went for his walk on their first full day.

Just such a silly decision to make from someone who definitely knew better, but then as his wife said, he was an adventurous man and that's part of why she loved him. I'd be fuming myself.

A few things conspired

But those things were evident and the outcome likely.

It was over 35C and just after midday
He was an older man
He walked where there was no shade or any cover
He took a wrong turn and seemed unaware of the geography of the island
No phone
He didn't have enough water or clothing for protection
He had the option to walk on a safer route or take the bus.

Not the same as someone being taken out by a drunken driver (for example.)

I don't understand why when he got to the top of the mountain he would have been able to see he was heading in the wrong direction, so why didn't he return back to Pedi?

That's a nonsensical comparison. A large proportion of death's in motor collisions are actually avoidable and most are "caused" by negligence, whether that's speeding, under the influence, unsafe unmaintained vehicles, pedestrians/cyclists not being aware of traffic around them, etc.

And to a large extent you can massively reduce the risks of being killed. I.e. you can choose not to be a passenger in a car driven by someone under the influence, or who is a known "boy racer" or who is driving an old/dangerous car, etc. You can make better choices as to where you cross the road. If you're a driver, you can buy a more solid/safer car with better crash test scores, you can choose to concentrate more and turn off your phone, you can choose to put your seatbelt on properly, you can usually choose to avoid known dangerous roads. You can choose to drive fewer miles by combining journeys, walking short distances, taking public transport, etc.

The difference in risk profiles is enormous by changing your own decisions and making safer choices. Quite simply it's not an equal "risk" regardless of decisions you make! Of course, you can be innocently walking down a street and get mowed down by a runaway bus where you are, literally, wrong place, wrong time, and basically unavoidable, but the chances of that happening are far less than making poor decisions, i.e. dodging traffic when crossing rather than waiting for the traffic lights, or being distracted by a mobile phone or changing radio channel and ploughing into a stationery truck or ignoring speed limits and doing 90 on a busy motorway!

I wonder if she's slightly in denial (which maybe we all would be) and can't countenance the bad decisions and is framing it as 'adventurous' - perhaps in time she'll think differently.

It wasn't an 'adventure' (which someone would prepare for ) - it was a series of possibly impulsive, bad decisions.

This doesn't in any way diminish the sadness or the tragedy or our affection for him.

I've looked on a map and the saddest thing is that the distance he was trying to walk really wasn't that far, especially at the speed he walks.

Oh yes I agree completely.

A foolish decision by him, and even more evident when you the height of the hill that he'd actually climbed in that heat with no shade or water. Absolute madness when there was no need and far easier routes.

Agree. This angry defensive behaviour when something happens and desperate attempts to explain why that person was an exception/ foolish/ asking for it/ unwell anyway to create a distance between them and the dead person’s circumstances is crazy! I had a horrific bereavement recently of a parent and the unbelievable defensive “ oh but not me” shite that some people felt compelled to come out with, has actually made me not want to speak to them again. They put their own desires to comfort and remove themselves before any attempt to console or support those loved ones grieving. People need to face up to it. This ridiculous prolonging of life through “ jogging in your 80s” means more and more people end up with the onset of dementia and have to experience horrific deaths. Avoid a heart attack- fine, but you might just be saving yourself for a horrible exit that could go on for years. By all means be super fit but we all die of something. I’d rather it not be a slow and miserable decline because my body is still on but my mind is dying from

It's odd.

If he was heading to Symi town, the sea should have been on his left, climbing the hill. He should have been able to see the road from Pedi to Symi.

As it was, the sea was on his right.

I think, sadly, that if he was full of (misguided) optimism and exuberance (which is how he comes over on TV) he was possibly thinking 'I can do this, it's only 4 miles'.

But heatstroke is a killer and being dehydrated clouds judgement.

I believe things like this happen when there's a "perfect storm" of things that develop together: diabetic, goes for for a walk by himself by the edge of a cliff under (40 greek) degrees with no phone etc... he was really playing Russian roulette there. eg: My friend recently got into a really bad car accident, she lives in central London, busy traffic area, that week she was very stressed out, lost her phone and crossed the street where she was not supposed to then got run over by a car. Had she not been stressed I'm pretty sure she would have paid more attention to the road. We need to be careful with those "perfect storms" because life is fragile.

I agree with you but I do think it comes down to personality type and if you simply don’t think in that way you are highly unlikely to take such measures. My Dad really lacks common sense but he is pretty fearless and doesn’t care- He has been in loads of different scenarios that have been hair raising and when you point this out he doesn’t see it like that.

This ridiculous prolonging of life through “ jogging in your 80s” means more and more people end up with the onset of dementia and have to experience horrific deaths

That's a bit ridiculous. Regular exercise has been proved time and time again to reduce the chances of getting certain diseases, including dementia.

I should add never something that directly would put others in danger like reckless driving.

I agree with everything you've said in your post @Keeptoiletssafe . This had occurred to me with these stupid gender neutral toilet designs (just telling us what we already know - there's a greater risk when men are using them). A gap at the bottom of the door is essential, even for fire wardens - when clearing a building, you need to check a locked cubicle by looking underneath if you don't get a response. Putting us all at higher risk in the service of some batshit ideology, it's mad.