More than private school fees will be affected by VAT

[MyNameIsFine]

Don't actually know if I'm being unreasonable here, interested to know whether this is true or not. Will the VAT on education also affect holiday clubs and afterschool clubs?

Any law can be well or poorly drafted. No point in worrying about that until draft text of a bill is available.

Unless you are trying to whip up unjustified fear about a change that will only impact a small number of relatively wealthy people. The same with claims that VAT will be applied to university tuition fees or our of hours activities. It is predictable backlash against one of a number of steps that need to be taken to tackle the systemic inequality that the independent school sector props up.

Why on earth would ‘more people’ be up in arms about it? Do you have any concept of how little the general population care about private school?

We do not know as Sir Fear Stamer does not come clean. Assume yes but he does not want to spook people up before the elections. I really hope he gets asked more in the next few weeks.

@Didimum some calculations show this policy might cost more than it saves. That might impact state schools budget

Just another false scaremongering thread.

Labour willl not put vat on to
Childcare or afterschool clubs.

I'm sure you're right. There are probably a lot more people, however, who care about holiday clubs, breakfast and after-school clubs, swimming lessons, private tuition and university tuition. It doesn't seem unreasonable for Labour to demonstrate how carefully they've considered this policy and release (a) the wording they've come up with to make sure that only the education provided at private schools is caught by this VAT change and (b) what are the timescales for implementing this policy. When the manifesto comes out, maybe all our questions will be answered.

I'm also extremely keen to find out how the specialist schools providing education for children with special educational needs and disabilities and children with special abilities, e.g. choir schools, dance and performing arts schools, football academies, are treated. Given that the UK economy derives enormous benefit from our world class performing arts and sport and some children get state funding to go to some of those schools, are we really going to do anything to make their budgets more precarious?

@MyNameIsFine

I guess the real reason I started the thread is because I can't understand why more people aren't up in arms about this

There is nothing to be upset about in arms about because Labour has no plans to do this.

You've either made this up or have fallen for a windup.

All these desperate thread trying to persuade people Labour would be a disaster really are pointless.

The tories are doing their very best to lose the election. Sunak's DDay disaster being just the latest example. All those spin doctors couldn't see that coming? They did it deliberately.

This has been discussed at DC’s primary school as well by the after school provider. I think they believe holiday clubs, music lessons, kids sports clubs will go up and possibly school trips and things relating to charitable PTAs will go up too.

However, I don’t think they will.

I am just here to confirm that people are talking about it and questioning it and that OP isn’t alone in her thinking

We all need the detail!

@Trainday

You are spot on. They are desperate.

27 years since Labour won the election in 1997. I suspect a lot of you were at school then or not even born, so don't remember what it was like. I voted for them. I was desperate for the Tories to be out of office after 18 years. I've never voted Tory in my life and up to that point I'd voted Labour in every election I'd been eligible to vote in. I had such high hopes from Labour but inevitably they didn't deliver much of what I'd hoped to see, and there was so much spin! It will be just the same this time. No political party is perfect.

I will vote Labour this time (probably - I live in such a safe Lavour seat that it won't make any difference how I vote). I won't be surprised at all when they start cocking up within days of the election, and if they rush through a badly drafted law to implement this policy that will be one of the cock ups. This policy is so obviously not going to lead to the demise of fee-paying schools and won't hit the super rich at all. It probably won't raise much money. But it's a useful bit of virtue signalling to appeal to some of their activists, so we'll be stuck with it.

Why are CCHQ so desperate to get so many threads started on this on MN? Have they not yet worked out that it's counterproductive?

VAT legislation is insanely detailed so the drafting change is pretty easy to just apply it to private school fees - which is what they’ve said they’ll do. I don’t think there’s any suggestion they will go after after school clubs or holiday clubs. While I don’t really support the policy they have been very clear about the objective.

How are they going to rush through a new law that quickly? And why would they?

I don't think it is them, I think it's MNetters who have been indoctrinated to belive the Conservatives will always be better for them personally. The Conservatives themselves have no interest in winning this election.

I don't know. You tell me. I was under the impression this was one of their flagship policies that would be implemented within days. Have I misunderstood?

The general voting public still don’t care. They certainly don’t care about speculative costings.

My daughter goes to a state school but the holiday club we use is at a private school. If the school closes and the building is sold, then the holiday club will have to relocate or stop. Therefore, there will likely be more people competing for the club spaces that are available.

I have friends whose children go to private school, which includes various clubs. If their school closes and they send their children to a state school, they will also want to send them to various after school clubs because they enjoy swimming, sports, arts etc. That means they clubs will also have fewer spaces available to those who want them because the demand is higher.

Or alternatively it's people like me who are not Tory voters, far less sent here from Tory HQ, but we look at party politics and despair because so many policies are just so badly thought out. As I've already said on this thread the innumerable posts suggesting people are Tory shills are extremely tedious. Anybody can look at my posts on MN and see I'm not a Tory plant. Engage with the issues and reassure people that Labour are competent and have thought about practical problems and resolved them.

Is that the latest desperate tactic? Make up some work of fiction, claim it's the opposing party's policy, and when everyone points out that that's never been the policy claim that they "won't come clean"?

Great, let's do it some more. Have you heard about the new Tory policy of taking away your house? Or the one where they're going to put you in the workhouse if you try to claim benefits? Or the one where they're going to make your children climb up chimneys to clean them? What do you mean, you don't know about them? It's because Sunak won't come clean. Assume yes but he doesn't want to spook people before the elections.

The amount of muddled thinking on this subject is quite extraordinary.

The VAT exempt status of private schools is NOTHING to do with a tax break for private schools, since they already pay VAT on VATable supplies but cannot reclaim it since they are not VAT registered themselves. It is also unrelated to charitable status (which the Labour party have already decided not to remove because ultimately it would not be possible).

The tax won't be levied on private schools as such, but on the parents who pay the fees. As those who use after school clubs have noted, if something that already stretches your budget to the max goes up, it could cause you a problem.

Should private school fees become subject to VAT, private schools will need to register for VAT and can then also reclaim the VAT that they pay on supplies such as building works and professional fees like accountancy - just like every other business. Schools that have carried out a big building project or something in the last few years will probably be able to reclaim quite a lot of money against VAT paid on fees (unless this is excluded in the legislation).

After school clubs are not education and not schools. There will not be VAT on after school clubs run by private companies, unless their turnover exceeds the VAT theshold - some probably already do exceed it and therefore already charge it if they are large companies running clubs in lots of venues. Same with tutoring or dance classes or whatever. Unless the Labour party decide to make all after school clubs subject to VAT, the position will be unchanged.

As it goes, it is actually state schools/LAs who are currently getting a tax break to some extent since although the schools cannot reclaim VAT, the LAs can (which is lucky since their budgets are very squeezed).

It is a pretty ill thought out plan, to be honest and I am not a fan as the amount of money raised for state schools will be negligible compared to what is needed and it may even backfire as people find the extra money unaffordable. But it won't impact childcare according to what has been proposed so far, which is what after school clubs are rather than education - these companies' eligibility for VAT will remain entirely based on turnover, which is already the case.

Maybe OP is a secret Tory trying to cause panic on Mumsnet with the idea wrap around care fees might increase!

Depending on the type of holiday club you may already pay VAT: https://www.taxation.co.uk/articles/holiday-clubs-are-exempt-from-vat-when-the-predominant-supply-is-childcare

Well it seems to be what Sunak is doing.

I live in a rural area. The only private nursery (i.e one open beyond school hours) within a 30 mile radius is at the private school.

Lots of local parents use it even though their kids will never go to the school.

I wonder how that would count?