More than private school fees will be affected by VAT

[MyNameIsFine]

Don't actually know if I'm being unreasonable here, interested to know whether this is true or not. Will the VAT on education also affect holiday clubs and afterschool clubs?

And this shows how little you understand about private schools.

• Many are not selective
• Many parents are more concerned about the journey than results
• Some private schools are specialist SEN schools or have a high % of SEN as local state schools can't cater for them

Personally we aren't looking for RoI.

No they won't lose their charitable status, there are lots of ways they can do this outside of bursaries. Not all private schools have charitable status in any case

So they took him out halfway through year 9 based on the possibility of a fee increase that may not even come in or affect him , to go to a failing school? Sounds highly unlikely. Also if his parents are plumbers they are not poor are they.

@twistyizzy

The IFS think it will be minimal, I think it will be lower than they think due to the fact that an increase 20 percent means for one child with average fees means a family needs to find 69 pounds per week.

As much as mumsnet likes to paint the picture of the majority of private school parents being those on average incomes, they really aren't, the vast majority ( well into 90%) are in the top decile for household incomes. They'll be able to make decisions about discretionary spending to find it.

"The only child in any of my kids classes who has moved is the son of a plumber who was on a 90% bursary. He was year 9 and because nobody knows, nobody could guarantee there wouldn't be a 20percent increase in his fees, and it would hit him in year 11. His family couldn't just soak that up. And all the good schools around us are full so yes, he is now bussed out to an unsubscribed, failing school that had a space. Great job Labour."

This never happened. More private school parent handwringing to try to protect their own privilege.

No, end of year 9. He started year 10 in a different school. Obviously they applied to the more sought after schools! They didn't have a space. I know them very well and they are definitely the sort of family with no further leeway in the budget (already no car, holidays council house ) It's awful, but it is true.

@joan12

Never happened.

When state school kids go on a trip they are paying for the coach, museum ticket, panto ticket etc. so they would (already ) pay vat if it's charged by these companies. There's no charge set by the school itself for these trips. I don't see that this would change

Just because you don't know anyone who has done this doesn't mean it's not happening, it's clear you have no idea of private schools so how would you know what is/is not happening?
There are more and more such stories coming through every day. Parents can't just sit and wait to see what happens, if they know they will struggle then they are giving notice now to take DC out to start state school in January.

It did I'm afraid. And he was the only child in any of my kids years who has moved. So far anyway

Are you sure it is due to the possible vat increase and not the existing fee increase due to inflation? Again it seems very odd, it's hardly likely that the school would have thrown him out halfway through year 11 even if the government applied the change in this way which they surely wouldn't do. It sounds like an excuse to me. I also don't know any poor plumbers.

So they took him out almost a year ago? Was this policy even announced then??

@twistyizzy

Never happened. It just didn't.

This is someone making stuff up on the internet to enhance their point.

I have a very good knowledge of what happens in private schools thanks and stories like this are just not.

Why would they take him out in September 2023 as the poster said? There was no indication of this election then, and it could have gone as late as January 2025, by which time their child would be in year 11. Fees wouldn't have been applied retrospectively and wouldn't be applicable after the school year had started.

Utter drivel attempt at an appeal to emotion.

The point is that the IFS figures, which the Labour Party are relying on, aren’t looking particularly accurate. Their estimate of falling pupil numbers has already been reached, for whatever reason.

I have evidence of decreasing catchments. Our own nearest grammar has a catchment about 25% smaller than the previous year.

A random google, and the first result was a different grammar in Trafford which has the following details ;
2024

• The furthest distance offered was 4 miles

2023

• The furthest distance offered was 15 miles

The picture won’t be the same across every single school, but it’s certainly affecting lots of schools.

I don't think it will apply to anything other than private school fees - right now.

I do, however, believe that once we apply VAT to education, in any form, it sets a president that may be more widely applied in the future. Not straight away but a slow creep, to keep the tax coming in. Extra curricular clubs, tutors, uni fees etc.

Who is to say they aren't a luxury? I think it's better to keep to the principle of not taxing education at all, so we protect education in all it's forms from taxation in the future.

@twistyizzy

If they remove buraries etc proving charitable status will be far, far harder. Free lets to primary schools etc will not cover being a charity. In fact even with bursaries etc the charity commission have already said schools need to work harder to prove that their main purpose is that of charity ( which is the purpose of the status, not a business that gives some charitable donations.

I know not all have it but a huge number of the secondaries do.

You can deny it all you like, but the VAST majority of schools will keep bursaries for this reason.

My son’s school has indicated they have heard from parents of 50-100 children who are considering leaving because of VAT. It was an internal communication to parent so it and was part of a wider discussion about how they will manage the vat issue. this is a top 30 school with around 1000 pupils. I must admit I was surprised the number was so high.

they are looking to reduce scholarships (% of award much lower than previously) but not bursaries at this time. But of course bursaries which were set at a pre vat level are not necessarily affordable with VAT added.

So there would be no VAT on the private school trip either, because it's not part of the fees, but just to cover the cost of the trip?

@Another76543

and as I said, the reasons for the current drop in applications is virtually nothing to do with fees.

Without contextual knowledge and a link to your one school that you think backs your point I'm going to call Hitchen's razor.

In reality so few children will be impacted this will make little to no difference to any applications to good state schools. The vast majority of private school parents would be able to find 69 pounds a week, which is nothing when the average fee is 18k a year.

This policy will work just fine, and have a lower impact than the IFS think in fact.

It doesn’t particularly bother me whether you believe the facts or not. There are a lot more children being moved to state at natural transition points (often 11) because of the threat of VAT, combined with the increase in the costs of living. The threat of VAT is the final straw for many families. Lots of private schools are seeing this trend. Many families don’t have a spare £3500 per year per child just to pay the extra tax.

I think the manifesto are being published on June 15th. I suppose we'll find out more details then.

Even though other economists disagree with IFS and the authors of the IFS study themselves admitted that they had been overly optimistic and underestimated the SEN factor?
Even though Labour have already had to announce they were exempting state boarding schools which has then left the door open for legal challenge from independent boarding schools?

I see it’s another mad thread rehashing the same old shit.

The other economists who disagree with the IFS? Well one group was paid by the Independent Schools Council to come up with the data, and even then the ISC was rebuked for woefully misusing it.

I actually think the IFS is not conservative enough.

The SEN factor in private schools is over killed anyway, there are MORE students in private schools with SEN and exam considerations than in state. This is mainly down to getting private diagnosis where a LEA or state provided one would not get them an EHC plan.

Do you work for an insurance company? What is this thing of breaking large numbers down to how much it will cost you a week to try to make it look small? Charities do it as well. 'We're asking for just £x per week. You probably spend that on coffee.'

Money doesn't work like that. If you've spent it it's gone. If you've spent £3.50 on coffee, that money doesn't magically appear again because 'it's not that much' - unless you stop drinking coffee! If you've spent £18000 on your mortgage, for an extra £68 to appear each week, you have to cut out something else. The £18000 has nothing to do with whether you have the £68. In fact, the more you spend, the less you have. You can't spend the same money twice. This is just basic finance except in the world of magical thinking.