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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?

635 replies

Another2Cats · 05/06/2024 19:52

So, I just read an article where they say they have done a poll of young people and, of those under 25, 54% said that they agree with the statement "the state of Israel should not exist". Just 21% disagreed.

Did the polling company manage to just randomly pick a bunch of people that feel this way, or is this genuinely how many young people feel?

IABU to think that this can't really be true? (I am quite prepared to accept that IABU and that this really is what a majority of young people believe)

The link is here:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/majority-of-young-britons-think-israel-should-not-exist/

and this is the text of the article:

A majority of Britain’s young people do not believe Israel should exist, a new UnHerd poll has revealed.

A preliminary finding of an exclusive survey of 1,012 voters about foreign policy, conducted by Focaldata and due to be released tomorrow on UnHerd, found that a striking 54% of 18-24-year-olds agreed with the statement that “the state of Israel should not exist.” Just 21% disagreed.

This finding dovetails with other UnHerd polling on the same issue. In a separate question, young respondents were asked who was more to blame for the war in Gaza. Half blamed the Israeli government, while a quarter answered Hamas. Only 19% responded “all equally”.

The war’s high degree of exposure online and on social media appears to have fuelled interest among Britain’s young. An AI-generated “all eyes on Rafah” graphic was shared more than 44 million times on Instagram recently, with pro-Palestine content also proliferating on TikTok. Critics have argued that the Chinese social media platform has deliberately promoted anti-Israel content, which TikTok has denied, citing the existing attitudes of its young user base.

These attitudes are reflected in further UnHerd polling, which asked young Britons about their level of interest in wars around the world. It found that Britons aged 18-24 are far more interested in the war in Gaza than they are in the Russia-Ukraine conflict or in US-China tensions. Among this group, 38% were very interested in Gaza and 28% were somewhat interested, compared with 19% and 44% who were very or somewhat interested in the war in Ukraine, respectively.

As the Israeli war enters its eighth month, public opinion has slowly shifted in Palestine’s favour. Historic polling shows that popular support for Israel was at its highest shortly after the 7 October attacks at 21%, but this figure has since fallen. Although young people were most sceptical of Israel before the attack, the overall level of support for the Jewish state over the same time frame has plummeted to 16%, according to YouGov figures.

As of this week, a new ceasefire proposal is on the table, and the US is pushing Israel to accept it. The deal would involve the exchange of prisoners for hostages and would pave the way for negotiations. A ceasefire has strong majority support in the UK.

Majority of young Britons think Israel should not exist

A majority of Britain’s young people do not believe Israel should exist, a new UnHerd poll has revealed. A preliminary finding of an exclusive survey of 1,012 voters about foreign policy, conducted by Focaldata and due to be released tomorrow on UnHerd...

https://unherd.com/newsroom/majority-of-young-britons-think-israel-should-not-exist

OP posts:
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41
MyrrAgain · 08/06/2024 19:05

This reply has been withdrawn

Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

DownNative · 08/06/2024 20:36

crispychickenwings · 08/06/2024 17:57

@DownNative Hmm nobody can take me seriously but I added sources so read them if you can be bothered.
I struggle to see how you can’t understand why a population that has been violently subjugated for 76 years would turn to a violent party to achieve their goals when the peaceful parties were being destabilised and ignored. While I disagree with what Hamas did, you can’t be confused as to why some Palestinians would support it?
Israel broke the ceasefire too, as well as continued their human rights abuses of Palestinians but I suppose you don’t care about that. Quite telling how you say I should ‘leave it to the experts’ when you yourself are making judgements too.
Of course other opinions are valid, what I’m saying is that just because Western institutions do not declare their own countries and allies as terrorists does not mean their actions cannot be classed as terrorism. How did you ‘easily deal’ with it? You didn’t even respond to that section of my post, and had nothing to say on the US’ Act to invade The Hague if they try to take them to court. It’s ok to criticise the West, I promise!Smile

"I struggle to see how you can’t understand why a population that has been violently subjugated for 76 years would turn to a violent party to achieve their goals when the peaceful parties were being destabilised and ignored."

The turning point in the history in the Middle East was the year 1929, in particular the Hebron Massacre. That was Arabs murdering Jewish people based on nothing more than rumour at the time. The Jews murdered in Hebron were Sephardi Jews who didn't support Zionism. But that made no difference to the Arabs who murdered them.

That year was the turning point because "Across Palestine the events of 1929 led to increased physical separation between Jewish and Arab communities. After 1929, Jews who had not been Zionists increasingly looked to the Zionist leadership in Palestine for protection. Increased separation strengthened support for Zionist ideology and leadership and made for a more unified Jewish community."

And:

"The events of 1929 did not only act as a stimulus to the development of the Yishuv; they also had a major impact on the development of Palestinian nationalism....Anti-British and anti-Zionist agitation became more and more militant, with some calling for armed resistance."

Source: "Palestinians And Israelis" by Michael Scott-Bauman

So, it's not accurate to suggest Palestinians were always the oppressed or underdog in the conflict!

The irony is their actions in 1929 not only sped up, but made partition of Palestine increasingly inevitable. This would lead to both Jewish and Arab-Palestinian peoples smuggling in weapons to the British Mandate of Palestine. The first armed insurrection was conducted by Izz ad-Din al-Qassam in November 1935. He later became a kind of hero for the PLO in the 1960s so a terrorist.

History tells us Arab leaders rejected all the British proposals as well as the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Indeed, every single deal ever tabled since. In 2011, Mahmoud Abbas admitted that Arabs were WRONG to reject the UN Partition Plan!

And you blatantly ignored the periods of time in the last 76 years when Egypt ruled Gaza and Jordan ruled West Bank! 🤦‍♂️

Problem is, if you keep on rejecting every deal ever tabled you end up leaving yourself with one option - violence/terrorism. US President Bill Clinton said he got Yasser Arafat 97% of PLO demands, but Arafat still rejected it. Exploding in anger, Clinton told him he was "leading your people and the region to catastrophe".

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman in 2018 told the Palestinians they have to accept a deal or shut up.

Hamas knew that Israel was succeeding with normalisation of relations with Arab States such as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia with US help. They started war on 7th October 2023 to deliberately destroy the peace process!

You see, Palestinians have been failed by their own leaders for 70 odd years and those leaders have deliberately led their people up the one way garden path to an end result in which their monuments is dead bodies and Palestinians in prison.

"While I disagree with what Hamas did, you can’t be confused as to why some Palestinians would support it?"

Some!?

Let's not downplay it as over 70% of Palestinians support Hamas' actions on 7th October 2023.

And they are wrong to do so.

The MINORITY Palestinians who do not support Hamas are absolutely in the right, especially since they can see that Hamas' actions only hurt Palestinians and their own cause.

I assure you I'm not confused one whit.

"Israel broke the ceasefire too..."

Incorrect. Hamas broke the ceasefire that had been in place since Summer 2023 on 7th October 2023.

Israel retaliating to that does NOT mean they broke the ceasefire! 🤦‍♂️

"Quite telling how you say I should ‘leave it to the experts’ when you yourself are making judgements too."

That's not what I actually said. However, I and my family DO have real life experience of terrorist organisations, how they work, what they do, how they think, etc. It's how we stayed alive whilst going in and out of "their" areas.

I advised you to listen and learn from people who know what they're talking about. No mention of experts of whom I read a fair amount in the field of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism.

"Of course other opinions are valid, what I’m saying is that just because Western institutions do not declare their own countries and allies as terrorists does not mean their actions cannot be classed as terrorism. "

My point is your argument is based on mere opinion and nothing else. You certainly don't have indepth knowledge of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism.

So, I easily dealt with it by turning your opinion back onto you and added detail such as the view of Sovereign States, EU Court, various courts and other instruments of law. Whataboutery is another one.

Finally, all opinions are NOT equal. That's why posts that can be interpreted as support for terrorist groups or explicitly expressing support for them are deleted by Mumsnet in accordance with the law. People who make such posts also run the risk of attracting attention from the authorities. It does happen.

To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?
To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?
To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?
To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?
DownNative · 08/06/2024 20:37

One more attachment.

To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?
crispychickenwings · 08/06/2024 22:59

@DownNative Let me do this in parts.
The Hebron massacre was in response to Zionism, and the potential destruction and replacement of the Al-Asqa mosque. I am not condoning it, but don’t act like it came from nowhere. Furthermore you are lying, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Hebron. Ashkenazi Jews in Hebron were Zionists who had migrated and wanted to live away from the indigenous Palestinian population.

“On that fateful day in August 1929, Arab-Palestinians in Jerusalem were incited to violence by rumours that Jews were planning to appropriate what is known to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary of Al-Aqsa and destroy the mosques there. The late Israeli historian Haim Gerber pointed out that in numerous documents written by Zionist leaders in the late 1920s they expressed the will to demolish the buildings on the “Temple Mount” to make space for a new Jewish Temple.”
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210819-the-massacre-of-jews-in-1929-hebron-is-a-microcosm-of-the-conflict/amp/

“So, when the proposal [The Palestinian party’s acceptance of Jewish settlers’ equal representation in the future bodies of the state] was accepted by the Palestinian party, it was rejected by the Zionists. This led to the riots of 1929, which included the massacre of Jews in Hebron and a much higher death toll among the Palestinian community [the riots, not the massacre]. But there were also other reasons for the wave of violence, the most serious since the beginning of the Mandate. It was triggered by the dispossession of Palestinian tenants from land owned by absentee landlords and local notables, which had been bought by the Jewish National Fund.” - Ten Myths about Israel, Ilan Pappe

Jewish youths also provoked indigenous Palestinians when they marched to the Western Wall, shouting, “the [Wailing] Wall is ours”, waving the Zionist flag and singing the Zionist national anthem.
References:
The Politics of Status Anxieties and Unequal
Rights in Interwar Colonial Algeria: Jewish-Muslim Conflicts and the 1934 Constantine
"Pogrom". Sophie B. Roberts, 2018
The Wailing Wall Disturbances in Nationalism and the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. Erik Freas, 2017

Arguably, the ‘turning point’ was Herzl’s idea of secular Zionism. Another ‘turning point’ can be the first Aliyah between 1881 - 1903, which was a result of Zionism growing in popularity, and led to more Zionists entering Palestine. A final ‘turning point’ in Middle East relations can be the Balfour Declaration in 1917, in which Lord Balfour had it in writing for a formation of a Jewish state in Palestine, “it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”.

crispychickenwings · 08/06/2024 23:07

@DownNative Regarding the 1947 partition plan, Palestinian leaders didn’t attend talks because they didn’t want people in their own land. Therefore decisions on a region were made without its own spokespersons there, which is frankly ludicrous to me. The Palestinians didn’t ‘reject’ anything. They did not attend talks.

Palestinians support Hamas because of the brutal subjugation Israel forces them through. Keep on ignoring that.

You’re so knowledgeable in terrorism, security and counter-terrorism you can’t even open a link to see it was dated in September 2023.

Good on you and your family. Your opinion of terrorism is not the be-all and end-all. Let’s ask the Irish Protestants whose relatives were murdered by the British in peaceful protests, I already know some of their opinions.

I already told you that the ‘various courts’ are Western courts who would not condemn their own states! ‘Mere opinion’. What is the objective definition of terrorism. I bet I can apply it to the US, UK and Israel.

crispychickenwings · 08/06/2024 23:14

@DownNative Wow! What an amazing batch of proposals in the Camp David Accords! In which the Palestinians can rule the West Bank and Gaza (that Israel was already wrongly administering), yet can have none of the land Israel currently occupies in their region! What amazing concessions by Israel! That is why Arafat rejected it.

The quote in your source states, “But do they punish us for this mistake for 64 years?” Good job overlooking the horror Palestinians go through daily.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 09/06/2024 12:25

Let’s ask the Irish Protestants whose relatives were murdered by the British in peaceful protests

I think you mean Catholics. The Protestants were pro British.

DownNative · 09/06/2024 13:11

crispychickenwings · 08/06/2024 23:07

@DownNative Regarding the 1947 partition plan, Palestinian leaders didn’t attend talks because they didn’t want people in their own land. Therefore decisions on a region were made without its own spokespersons there, which is frankly ludicrous to me. The Palestinians didn’t ‘reject’ anything. They did not attend talks.

Palestinians support Hamas because of the brutal subjugation Israel forces them through. Keep on ignoring that.

You’re so knowledgeable in terrorism, security and counter-terrorism you can’t even open a link to see it was dated in September 2023.

Good on you and your family. Your opinion of terrorism is not the be-all and end-all. Let’s ask the Irish Protestants whose relatives were murdered by the British in peaceful protests, I already know some of their opinions.

I already told you that the ‘various courts’ are Western courts who would not condemn their own states! ‘Mere opinion’. What is the objective definition of terrorism. I bet I can apply it to the US, UK and Israel.

All that and your argument is severely undermined by your own basic errors!

For example:

"Let’s ask the Irish Protestants whose relatives were murdered by the British in peaceful protests, I already know some of their opinions."

Yes, the British Army did kill some Protestants - mostly members of Loyalist terrorist groups such as UVF, UDA, etc.

But I suspect you meant Catholics of which I actually am one!

See, what you and others like you never grasp or understand is that Catholics were not in favour of PIRA. Indeed, Catholics were more likely to join the British Army and RUC during Operation Banner!

They and their families then became the target of PIRA.

Indeed,I have testimony from various PIRA terrorists that shows they deliberately engineered confrontations with the Army in order to create conflict, especially Catholic deaths.

That's why the Catholic leader of the SDLP John Hume said that PIRA was responsible for the terror inflicted on ALL parts of the community, including Catholics and Protestants.

Hume blamed PIRA for the security arrangements, internment, raiding of homes and even destruction of jobs on PIRA.

The vast majority of Catholics agreed with him and voted for his party!

It sounds like you've been reading PIRA propaganda too. PIRA admitted they wanted to make life hard for Catholics, you know. 🤦‍♂️

Now...why did you once AGAIN try to speak on matters of which you admitted to be ignorant about?!

Jesus wept!

DownNative · 09/06/2024 13:12

StarbucksSmarterSister · 09/06/2024 12:25

Let’s ask the Irish Protestants whose relatives were murdered by the British in peaceful protests

I think you mean Catholics. The Protestants were pro British.

So was approximately 20% of Catholics.

Aladdinzane · 09/06/2024 20:59

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