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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?

635 replies

Another2Cats · 05/06/2024 19:52

So, I just read an article where they say they have done a poll of young people and, of those under 25, 54% said that they agree with the statement "the state of Israel should not exist". Just 21% disagreed.

Did the polling company manage to just randomly pick a bunch of people that feel this way, or is this genuinely how many young people feel?

IABU to think that this can't really be true? (I am quite prepared to accept that IABU and that this really is what a majority of young people believe)

The link is here:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/majority-of-young-britons-think-israel-should-not-exist/

and this is the text of the article:

A majority of Britain’s young people do not believe Israel should exist, a new UnHerd poll has revealed.

A preliminary finding of an exclusive survey of 1,012 voters about foreign policy, conducted by Focaldata and due to be released tomorrow on UnHerd, found that a striking 54% of 18-24-year-olds agreed with the statement that “the state of Israel should not exist.” Just 21% disagreed.

This finding dovetails with other UnHerd polling on the same issue. In a separate question, young respondents were asked who was more to blame for the war in Gaza. Half blamed the Israeli government, while a quarter answered Hamas. Only 19% responded “all equally”.

The war’s high degree of exposure online and on social media appears to have fuelled interest among Britain’s young. An AI-generated “all eyes on Rafah” graphic was shared more than 44 million times on Instagram recently, with pro-Palestine content also proliferating on TikTok. Critics have argued that the Chinese social media platform has deliberately promoted anti-Israel content, which TikTok has denied, citing the existing attitudes of its young user base.

These attitudes are reflected in further UnHerd polling, which asked young Britons about their level of interest in wars around the world. It found that Britons aged 18-24 are far more interested in the war in Gaza than they are in the Russia-Ukraine conflict or in US-China tensions. Among this group, 38% were very interested in Gaza and 28% were somewhat interested, compared with 19% and 44% who were very or somewhat interested in the war in Ukraine, respectively.

As the Israeli war enters its eighth month, public opinion has slowly shifted in Palestine’s favour. Historic polling shows that popular support for Israel was at its highest shortly after the 7 October attacks at 21%, but this figure has since fallen. Although young people were most sceptical of Israel before the attack, the overall level of support for the Jewish state over the same time frame has plummeted to 16%, according to YouGov figures.

As of this week, a new ceasefire proposal is on the table, and the US is pushing Israel to accept it. The deal would involve the exchange of prisoners for hostages and would pave the way for negotiations. A ceasefire has strong majority support in the UK.

Majority of young Britons think Israel should not exist

A majority of Britain’s young people do not believe Israel should exist, a new UnHerd poll has revealed. A preliminary finding of an exclusive survey of 1,012 voters about foreign policy, conducted by Focaldata and due to be released tomorrow on UnHerd...

https://unherd.com/newsroom/majority-of-young-britons-think-israel-should-not-exist

OP posts:
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41
MyMumIsBetterThanYours · 06/06/2024 22:28

Aladdinzane · 06/06/2024 22:24

@MyMumIsBetterThanYours

No I'm saying that Jordan is east of the river, and traditionally the populations in the North had more connections with Syria and in the South with the Arab peninsular than Palestine its self.

I do not think Jordan and Transjordan are compeltely different things.

You claimed "Jordan was Palestinian Land", it wasn't part of the British Mandate of Palestine ( in fact there was a mandate called Transjordan that was separate and the differences in the area and the populations were recognised by the British at the time).

Answer my question, where should the Palestinians who lived East of the River Jordan have gone to?

Oh ok, to clarify I meant "a land full of Palestinians" as in both people are the same ethnicity and from the same land which then was randomly divvied up.

Where should they have gone to when, exactly? I don't really know what I'm trying to answer

MyMumIsBetterThanYours · 06/06/2024 22:29

Aladdinzane · 06/06/2024 22:24

@MyMumIsBetterThanYours

I do love how you keep trying to diminish Israel's responsibility though.

Not diminishing Israel's responsibility, pointing out that others are also responsible because so many posters conveniently ignore it. It's frustrating.

Aladdinzane · 06/06/2024 22:32

"" as in both people are the same ethnicity and from the same land which then was randomly divvied up."

Hmm, as said the population in what is now Jordan was far more "Arab" than the Palestinian one though, I'm not sure you could class them as the same ethnicity.

The Palestinian population is genetically far more linked to the Jewish population.

Aladdinzane · 06/06/2024 22:33

@MyMumIsBetterThanYours But failing to acknowledge that the major transgressions against and oppressions of Palestinian people of the 20th and 21st centuries have been committed by the Israeli government.

ByPeachJoker · 06/06/2024 22:33

I've not read any of the other comments but I think most young people probably agree with the comment on that basis that Israel is state based upon religion and in this day and age, that isn't something most people agree with. There is undoubtedly also an element of ppl who will vote that way in a protest against Israel's actions in Gaza but I certainly don't think it stems from anti-Semitism.

The issue with any state founded upon a particular religion is that it paves the way for discrimination, apartheid and lowering the rights of citizens that don't prescribe to that religion which is what Israel currently does. Malaysia does the same to citizens who openly turn their back on Islam. India is constitutionally a secular state but Modi and the BJP party want to amend the constitution to call it a 'Hindu' state so they can further erode the rights of Muslims and Christians.

I think if anything, the results of that poll are a win as it shows young people actually care about morality and ethics regardless of religion.

TrickyRibbon · 06/06/2024 22:39

ByPeachJoker · 06/06/2024 22:33

I've not read any of the other comments but I think most young people probably agree with the comment on that basis that Israel is state based upon religion and in this day and age, that isn't something most people agree with. There is undoubtedly also an element of ppl who will vote that way in a protest against Israel's actions in Gaza but I certainly don't think it stems from anti-Semitism.

The issue with any state founded upon a particular religion is that it paves the way for discrimination, apartheid and lowering the rights of citizens that don't prescribe to that religion which is what Israel currently does. Malaysia does the same to citizens who openly turn their back on Islam. India is constitutionally a secular state but Modi and the BJP party want to amend the constitution to call it a 'Hindu' state so they can further erode the rights of Muslims and Christians.

I think if anything, the results of that poll are a win as it shows young people actually care about morality and ethics regardless of religion.

Edited

In what ways does Israel discriminate against those who don't follow Judaism?

ByPeachJoker · 06/06/2024 22:46

TrickyRibbon · 06/06/2024 22:39

In what ways does Israel discriminate against those who don't follow Judaism?

Their treatment of Arab/Muslim citizens is well documented - major waterways and sewers diverted away from majority Arab towns to populations with larger Jewish populations during periods of drought. Arab citizens face greater bureaucracy with limited access to resources such as hospitals, policing and education.

PurpleChrayn · 06/06/2024 22:47

crispychickenwings · 06/06/2024 21:41

@Aladdinzane exactly- I believe unconscious racism and Islamophobia is a large part of this. The West already paints Arab Muslims as ‘the bad guys’, I’m sure this view heavily affects the perspective of the Israel/Palestine conflict too.

Who is it that commits the majority of terrorism in the West? Is it Israeli Jews?

DrBlackbird · 06/06/2024 22:56

You quite literally said: “Further, why did Hamas attack so brutally in the first place knowing exactly what Israel would do to their families and their communities in response?”

That is part and parcel victim blaming. Israel has no right to completely decimate Palestinians’ lives because of Hamas’ attacks

I am mostly definitely not blaming the victims! Not the innocent Israeli young people on 7th October. Not the innocent Palestinian women and children. Unless, you meant that Hamas are victims? And blaming them is victim blaming? Is that what you meant @crispychickenwings ?

Also for the record, the use of rape is always horrific and barbaric regardless.

girljulian · 06/06/2024 23:24

noblegiraffe · 06/06/2024 00:20

So Israel should be wiped off the map?

Who said that??

noblegiraffe · 06/06/2024 23:28

girljulian · 06/06/2024 23:24

Who said that??

It's the subject of this thread? Young people were polled and a majority said Israel shouldn't exist?

Do you agree with them?

CanadaNotAMum · 06/06/2024 23:32

Aladdinzane · 06/06/2024 18:06

@CanadaNotAMum you are misrepresenting me, I have at each stage made it clear that pogroms were the major cause of Jewish migration from other Middle Eastern States.

It was you that repeated the "told to leave or chose to leave" thing which is used by Israeli supporters to dismiss the right to return.

I really don't know how this situation can be resolved without the descendants of those forced out during the Nabka being given the right to return as well as some form of compensation for the land seized.

This is why a truth and reconciliation committee would be very useful,

What are you talking about? I haven’t said any of that!
I believe you are the one who is misrepresenting me by being careless with your replies.

whatdidyousaaay · 06/06/2024 23:56

Im not especially young -34 - but everyone I know thinks this and publicly discusses it and shares posts to this nature on social media and many attend pro-Palestine marches regularly. None were especially political before the genocide. Before the genocide I didn’t think this, now I have learned more, I do.

whatdidyousaaay · 06/06/2024 23:58

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79Helene · 07/06/2024 00:29

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I'm appalled by what Israel is doing in Gaza but "desperation" is a fucking reach. 7/10 was orchestrated by a bunch of blokes who live the absolute high life in their ivory towers. Who knew fine well where their provocation would lead.

Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK and expressing support for them is illegal, including on Mumsnet.

milkwonder · 07/06/2024 00:29

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79Helene · 07/06/2024 00:35

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What, you want the whole Israeli population of 10 million to move to the UK and US? Does that include Arab Israelis? Or just Jews?

noblegiraffe · 07/06/2024 00:36

Maybe different countries could have them on a rota. That would be even fairer.

79Helene · 07/06/2024 00:54

noblegiraffe · 07/06/2024 00:36

Maybe different countries could have them on a rota. That would be even fairer.

Maybe they'll be able to go to the Maldives after all!

MyMumIsBetterThanYours · 07/06/2024 06:10

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Who is "them" exactly?

somewhereovertherain · 07/06/2024 06:28

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DownNative · 07/06/2024 06:48

crispychickenwings · 06/06/2024 21:05

@DownNative I assume you would’ve been in support of apartheid South Africa then. What South Africa has proven is that disenfranchised people will rise up when faced with injustice, through violence or other means. It would’ve been nonsense for Mandela to reproach violent organisations, because he’d understand why.

What that person was saying was that the definition of terrorist is entirely subjective, and the West uses it whenever they see fit + whenever it benefits them, when in reality, a lot of their own actions will match their definition of ‘terrorist’ too. E.g in destabilising countries and the establishment of imperial regimes.

You assume wrong!

Mandela himself wasn't simply supporting violence in terms of legitimate resistance, but actively supporting terrorist groups such as the Provisional I.R.A who had no popular support from the people and also always had a democratic route.

In short Mandela was a terrorist. Not a liberator.

If you believe that 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter', then you are arguing that something being terrorism is really just a matter of opinion.

One perspective with a claimed equal opposite perspective. This kind of thinking easily gives rise to False Balance aka bothsidesism, False Equivalence, False Dichotomy and so on. These are logical fallacies.

If 'terrorism' is, as you say, really just a matter of opinion, then other opinions are available and just as valid.

So, what is the view of various Sovereign Governments, European Union and courts on Hamas?

Since 2001, the Council of the European Union has adopted a "common position" and a regulation to combat terrorism.

In 2014 after Hamas contested their designation as a terrorist organisation, the EU's General Court found the EU's terrorist designation had been "based not on acts examined and confirmed in decisions of competent authorities but on factual imputations derived from the press and the internet". Furthermore, the General Court asserted that, "The court stresses that those annulments, on fundamental procedural grounds, do not imply any substantive assessment of the question of the classification of Hamas as a terrorist group within the meaning of the common position."

Unsurprisingly, Hamas took this as validation of their own acts of terrorism which they claim was supported under international law as "resistance".

In 2019, the European Court of Justice overturned the ruling of the General Court. The ECJ asserted below:

"The Court of Justice, sitting as the Grand Chamber, sets aside the judgment of the General Court of 4 September 2019. It finds that the General Court erred in law in ruling that the statements of reasons relating to the retention of Hamas on the lists annexed to the acts at issue should – in the same way as the acts themselves, which contain a general statement of reasons – have been signed by the President and the Secretary-General of the Council. In addition, those statements of reasons were adopted by the Council simultaneously with those acts, to which they were inseparably attached, and their authenticity has not been validly challenged."

And:

"...that the Council produced documents demonstrating that the statements of reasons were adopted simultaneously with the acts at issue signed by the President and the Secretary-General of the Council, to which they were inseparably attached, and that Hamas has not put forward any evidence that could call into question the fact that the text of the statements of reasons that were notified to it and the text adopted by the Council correspond perfectly. Since the authenticity of those statements of reasons has not been validly challenged by Hamas, the Court concludes that the action brought by Hamas must be dismissed in its entirety."

So, the European Union was AND remains correct to designate Hamas NOT as a so-called "resistance movement", but as a TERRORIST organisation. Especially since Hamas did NOT argue against the authenticity of the CoE's statements of reason that led to this designation in the first place!

That leads us to the designation of Hamas as a terrorist organisation by, aside from the EU, Sovereign States such as the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Paraguay, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina and others.

It surprises nobody that Israel designates Hamas as a terrorist organisation as well.

In 2023, "The United States welcomes Germany’s decision to ban activities supporting Hamas" and asserted that "Hamas is a dangerous terrorist organization, which engages in barbaric actions and has compounded and perpetuated the suffering of the Palestinian people at every step of this crisis".

And:

"Authorities in Germany's most populous state, North Rhine-Westphalia, have outlawed a Palestinian organization that promotes Hamas and calls for the eradication of Israel on Thursday".17 May 2024

In the United States, the so-called "charity" Holy Land Foundation For Relief and Development was accused of funding a terrorist organisation - Hamas. On 24th November 2008, their five leaders were convicted of 108 counts. Other so-called charities including Holy Land Foundation (HLF), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), and Kind Hearts were also shutdown by United States authorities for funding a terrorist organisation - Hamas.

The "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" slogan implicitly holds (paradoxically) that ‘terrorism’ is inherently bad while ‘freedom fighting’ is good, and that labelling an act freedom fighting precludes it from also being viewed as terrorism. Making it a nonsensical statement, naturally, whilst serving as motivation for terrorist groups to manipulate as many people as possible to believe they're not terrorists.

But it is supporters of terrorist organisations themselves, their fellow travellers and their sneaking regarders who actively attempt to push that flawed cliché. Usually to people who have not had to think very much, if at all, about the problem of terrorism.

Hence, websites have a legal duty and requirement to observe the law. That means passing information on to the relevant authorities, deleting comments and, yes, banning accounts who attempt to push support for terrorist groups, explicitly and/or implicitly, overtly and/or covertly.

It would seem that some advocates of the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" school of thought have a bit of a problem.

As Randy Borum, Directors of Psychology of Terrorism Initiative said:

"When we abandon the cliché that one person’s terrorist is the other’s freedom fighter, we can better understand (or adopt) Jenkin’s definition that: “One man’s terrorist is everyone’s terrorist”.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

By the way, all opinions are NOT equal. Indeed, those opinions suggesting, could be interpreted as support and explicit support for terrorist groups are ILLEGAL under the law.

milkwonder · 07/06/2024 07:32

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milkwonder · 07/06/2024 07:39

@79Helene why are you acting like that isn't possible??? Have you forgotten what happened to them after the holocaust??
And yes of course it includes Arab Jews. I'm not the one that is racist towards the colours of Jews, it's not me that dictates which type of Jew is acceptable.
And pls there is a distinction between Jews and Israelis, as can be seen by the many lovely Jews that oppose the apartheid.

noblegiraffe · 07/06/2024 07:40

Who would have thought that posters on a female forum would need telling that rape is not resistance and that what happened to Shani Louk wasn't freedom fighting.

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