to suggest that every single parent with a child at private school apply for a state school place asap?

[sarjd]

let's see how that works.

“There is no more "hate" from the public than there has ever been.”

Are you actually joking? We will likely have a landslide victory by a party that have singled out a group of school children as privileged and to be taxed in an anomalous way? And plenty of people are applauding that?

It is like the Brexit hatred directed at Eastern Europeans. They very much felt that. That is exactly why so many left and you now cannot fill your caring jobs.

Let’s at least be honest here.

If it's Scotland it's a lot more complicated than England and I could well believe that Edinburgh might well be a mess as a higher proportion of Edinburgh children go private. I'd expect pressure in Edinburgh, possibly East Dunbartonshire, Linlithgow and some of the West End and Southside areas in Glasgow. The Glasgow private schools would probably be more vulnerable as they are cheaper than most English ones and a lot of parents chose to go private rather than buy in catchment. Not so sure about Edinburgh. There's a lot more expectation/obligation to go to catchment school in Scotland, LAs have only recently started to change the rules away from live in catchment go to catchment school.

The big costs to LAs will be transport to distant schools with places and placements/support for children who are neuro diverse but coping in a private school environment having struggled at state schools.

Other economic costs will probably be reduced incomes for domestic cleaners, coffee shops, restaurants, retail as parents who can just afford school fees plus vat take the advice to cut their cloth accordingly, which is probably not great for local economies...

That is a sweeping generalisation.

I used to work in a private school. There were many kids whose parents held down several jobs between them, who made massive sacrifices to send their kids to that private school. They were only just making ends meet with the financial crisis - another 20% will be absolutely unaffordable. Not everyone who makes the choice to send their child privately is rich.

@Lily193 "You have no absolutely no idea about anyone's financial circumstances"

I do know that most people won't be employing tax accountants to avoid a small increase in tax,

If you look back on my post
youre forgetting

It’s not just A simple 15% on 18,000 = £2700

Also
10% loss of students ( that’s between Labours 5% and ISC 21% who have bursaries and tbh that should be 13% but I’ve taken 10% as best case )
For every 10 students fees one leaves leaving 9 students absorbing the loss
That’s an extra £2000 plus 15% = £2300
Total £ 5000

[Lets not forget that’s before the standard rise in fees but let’s assume the school has made cut backs and dropped extra costs in other areas and applied for tax back on building works etc ]

So £ 5000 extra in fees after parents have paid tax and ni on earnings
In order to pay fees let’s assume the extra earnings are at the higher rate

Also
You’ve forgot to allow for the tax and ni they will have to pay on their earnings before they pay school fees

So that’s an additional required earning of
£8500 for one child a year
£17,000 for two children a year.

The fact is this group of children ARE privileged - so what's wrong with making their parents pay more? People do not hate the children or their parents - but dislike the inequality this perpetuates - to compare it to Brexit is ridiculous.

My kids are at private school. We will carry on paying for now because we can afford it. But I am looking at state options at appropriate break points because I am well aware that there are ever fewer children coming in at the younger age groups. I’m concerned that, with falling numbers, the school will no longer be able to provide the smaller class sizes, less stressed teachers and better facilities which my dc benefit from.

Our school is in an area of failing schools. There is a much bigger gap between the best and worst state education than between average state and private. We don’t live in these catchments, but I know many of dc’s friends do and they have parents both working 2 jobs to keep the kids out of that. I can only applaud their effort and sacrifice to do the best they can for their kids. Not all parents in the private system are rich.

I would much prefer a system which taxes the highest earners (which would include us) more, and pay for better education for all. This is the grown up thing to do, rather than penalising poorer people who have made the best decision they could for their dc. Taxing private education might work for a bit, as pp said, it is inelastic demand. But that only applies until your child reaches the next natural break. Tax takes will drop over a few years, alongside an increasing cost of state education - then how does Labour intend to pay for their new recruits?

This policy is really poor, but people like it because of a certain schadenfreude about pushing ‘privileged’ kids into failing schools. But of course, the really privileged kids (probably including my own) won’t ever be subjected to that, because really privileged parents can make sure it doesn’t happen.

No, I'm not joking.

I don't think that feelings about private schools in the general population have changed much at all. And I don't think that this particular policy is at the top of the agenda for most people voting Labour either.

Yes, a lot of people support the policy on VAT because a lot of people have long believed that private schools help to perpetuate inequality and that richer people should be taxed appropriately. People are only talking about it more now because the policy seems likely to be implemented.

As I have already said, I don't think "hate" is the right word in most cases, anyway. For many, it's more a question of beliefs about fairness than anything personal against the minority of families that do use private schools. But of course, there will always be some who resent/hate people that are more privileged that they are... and I think that has always been the case.

Again a total lack of understanding of subjects taught at private schools.

In our area state schools don’t do German….my kids have left school now but all studied German. This would be denied at GCSE and there are no private German tutors.
Classics is another subject….
Russian is another subject….
Photography is another subject….

One of mine took GCSE in 3 of these subjects. Had we had to move him he’d be down 3 subject areas and have no languages at GCSE.

Especially if he’s half way through, or even doing Alevels in any of them.
The reality of ‘oh well who cares’ affects kids very directly and no Government should think that’s OK

@GivePeaceAChance

No, my calculation is accurate, yours is convoluted and doesn't come to an accurate figure.

Everyone pays tax and national insurance and then VAT on other things.

You for some reason are calculating that people need to earn more, they probably don't.

You've basically just made some massive assumptions and added in figures of your own liking to come to a figure which suits you.

My figure is accurate.

" but people like it because of a certain schadenfreude about pushing ‘privileged’ kids into failing schools."

There's another strawman.

Gosh all these highly educated and successful PE parents who can't construct a point well.

Alagginzane, I haven’t run the numbers, but if the number is very small, surely the impact of that spread across the >10 x number of children in the state sector, it’s not going to go very far?!

Ok, tell me what you think is wrong with that? Why do people like it compared with eg an increase in higher rate tax rates?

There's a certain amount of tough shit about broad policies that don't bend to the advantage of the individual. See also the huge spike in abortions following the third child policy in 2016. Sorry if you can't continue learning Russian at school.

“As I have already said, I don't think "hate" is the right word in most cases, anyway. For many, it's more a question of beliefs about fairness than anything personal against the minority of families that do use private schools. But of course, there will always be some who resent/hate people that are more privileged that they are... and I think that has always been the case.”

I think it is quite clear on MN that is exactly how some posters are feeling though?

I have a lot of friends, colleagues and family with kids at private schools. I think it is true that the upper elite quite liberal & woke elite will happily pay it. But the rest of them are very emotional and upset about it. So we cannot deny their feelings. Will it pass, maybe or maybe not. It really is a true anomaly internationally speaking so I am very concerned about how it looks and how it will be perceived.

So why is it a better policy that increasing the tax burden on the highest paid - which won’t drag in poorer families, will be more stable and will improve state education without screwing up existing educational pathways for some kids?

@Menopausalprincess

Probably because it raises 2.5% of the total amount spent on schools and can be committed towards education funding as part of spending policies, and it allows Labour to commit to this without announcing tax rises.

But it is a luxury, and people should have been taxed on it before.

I think you can rest assured that higher earners will be getting it the neck come the Autumn budget.

So education is a public good but private education is a luxury to tax

Should we start taxing private healthcare?

Steak, but not mincemeat.
Air jordans, but not Tesco trainers?

Who is going to sit in judgement about where the line is between necessity and luxury?

Perhaps best to stick with universal categories like the rest of the world, rather than descend into bickering amongst ourselves like the board of a collectivist farm in 1930s USSR.

Who would have thought there were so many egalitarian thinkers in the private system, willing to demand fairness at every turn and improve the standard of education in state schools? Where have you all been?

I’m happy to pay higher taxes, but I’m really sad to see poorer families forced into these positions now. State education should be fixed first and asap. My question still stands though, why do you find taxing private education so much more appealing than increasing tax rates on higher earners?

I’ve been volunteering in my local state primary listening to kids read & helping in the garden. You?

Food is taxed differently between basic foods and luxury foods

I have to say I did not like Starmer’s response over whether he would pay for a close relative to have private healthcare (or sit lingering on an NHS waiting list). I mean surely, if his child was not getting treatment promptly on the NHS, given he has a ton of cash he would actually save his own child if it were something serious? Because if he would not, I would lose all respect for him.

I am centre left, but when it comes to your own close relative or your own child, you have to morally put them first above some sort of dogma and society. Always.

And so this kind of crazy VAT policy really does worry me. It just does not make any sense.

Ha yes exactly

Adults clamouring over what will be crumbs, maybe even a cost to taxpayers and not much on whether education as a whole will benefit

This policy is GE fodder, but as someone who uses state schools I’d like more than that from politicians