How do you think schools should punish children?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

A lot of ‘school refusal’ and problems in education is associated with poor behaviour from other pupils on here. Yet whenever a poster’s child is reprimanded they seem outraged and feel the teacher is picking on their DC for no reason. They often think the (perfectly reasonable sounding) punishment is too harsh, or their child should’ve had more warnings.

So I’m interested in how you think schools should actually discipline pupils, taking into account this also means your own DC?

This is why those who can afford it- or grandparents- pay to go to nice private schools where children are far better behaved and are actually happy at school.

Putting the badly behaved children next to the good ones who want to learn is so unfair on the good children.

@pinkpip100.. Can I ask if you try and change anything because I try and I get nowhere because the level of ignorance is too deep.
There isn't even an understanding of what an ehcp is or how hard they are to get?

I see the "don't bother educating children with SEN, they aren't human anyway" brigade is also out in force.
Never mind, once all the children you hate are out of school or being held in dead end babysitting factories till they are 16, you'll be paying for them to be on benefits/in a psychiatric hospital/in prison because they can't get a job due to having no education.

@oakleaffy

I don't deny private schools may better but... Private schools and money can't magic away sen, or trauma or behaviour issues they just may have less children like that to "manage.

Well, if you'd like to take my son at your school, he's in year 7, main need is SEMH, we live in the NW but we're happy to look at residential.
We have been DYING to find a setting where he can spend time learning social skills from children who have good social skills too. Everyone told me they don't exist.

The parents have the right to choose this so they are exercising their right. This is a class with three other very high needs children already. One teacher and one TA. The onus is on the school to argue that they can’t accommodate a child and that is almost never successful despite a child’s very challenging needs or behaviour . It’s so difficult to exclude a child at primary level, requirements to repeatedly try new ways to manage aggressive behaviour for example can mean that another child’s entire experience of primary school is informed by the behaviour of one or more violent children in that class.

It's hard - I think that everything and everyone I come across is stretched to (beyond) their limit, so they don't really have the capacity to hear any of it, let alone re-educate themselves that makes sense?

I'm really not sure, but schools need to nip persistent disruption in the bud but it's hard for teachers who are usually the only adult in the room with 25-30 teenagers to do this when SLT are out of the classroom dealing with a higher level of disruption. Detentions do not work, it can take weeks to sit a detention as there are so many students in them. Smaller schools and classes would help.

My brother’s children are lucky enough to be paid for to go to a good private school in London- They love it.

There aren’t any issues at all- So different to my son who had to cope with local comps ( I didn’t have a rich FIL!)

At my son’s secondary school, the wealthier parents whisked their children out-at year 7.
It made for a much more serene and happy life for the privately educated kids.
They were/ are lucky!

They do exist, but not everywhere.

Are there any ARP's where you are?

@pinkpip100
I don't expect parents to do anything - other than accept if a school tell them that they cannot meet the needs of ALL the children they have to accept with SEN. All four sets of parents have been approached by the SENCo about alternative routes and have refused. I find that baffling.

None of the children are unwelcome! But none of them are fulfilling anything like their potential - they simply can't, with a single teacher, limited resources and minimal additional adult support.

I would LOVE to be able to genuinely support and include all students. But I can't. What would you like schools to do?

I’m not even sure punishment is the key. I think school needs to be more engaging and fun. I went to a school where it felt like the teachers were interested in what you had to say. Lessons were hives of activity with everyone asking questions, giving opinions and enjoying themselves. The only class where there was bad behaviour was RE because the teacher clearly hated being there and expected everyone to sit silently copying from the board.
When there was a problem, they asked the students what they thought would help. For example, the teachers were fed up of people wearing their own hoodies so asked the kids what would stop them doing that, we all voted for school logo hoodies and the problem was solved. The teachers didn’t have to police uniform anymore, the kids got to be comfy in clothing they were happy to wear.
The stereotypical ‘rough’ kids who were non academic were supported to do vocational learning in the afternoons provided they attended core subjects in the mornings.
If schools were run more like communities rather than prisons, you might not have a behaviour problem to solve. When I look back, I think I was lucky to have a bunch of happy teachers who seemed to really want to be there and it was felt by the kids.
Though there will still be the odd bad apple and for them I think it should be easier to permanently exclude.

I don’t expect parents to do anything. I expect politicians to stop sweeping all sorts of needs under the carpet of ‘inclusion’.

A friend of mine has a SEN child, the council have agreed to fund a specialist school (its excellent, meets the child’s needs beautifully, she’s very happy) but they have to reapply for funding from the council every year. WTF? Like a parent needs that stress! The council, trying to wheedle its way out of providing the education a child deserves to save a bit of cash. It’s disgusting

Teenagers who don’t want to go to school and behave whilst there can go and work in factories. Perhaps cycling to make electricity for the rest of us ??
Naughty disrespectful children should be sent home until they learn to follow the rules of the school. Teachers are sick of teaching ill reared brats and their classmates are sick of having their education disrupted. I wouldn’t be opposed to a good thump tbh.

@PonkyPonky the best lessons are the ones with lots of interactions.

We are in the dark ages and we urgently need mandatory basic training.

@pinkpip100 the people I'm thinking of are capable time wise of taking stuff on but the establishment doesn't promote it and training doesn't happen.

All I see is people making life harder for themselves because they have no training, stragety or understanding.

The re applying is generally a formality. The school has to undertake an annual review and confirm that it can still meet the child's needs. In 20 years in SEN I have never seen a child removed from a specialist school by the school/council, where the school was still able to meet the child's needs. Some make so much progress with intensive early support that they can move into mainstream. Some need an alternative specialist provision as the original one is not meeting their needs as they evolve. I have however seen some removed by parents to move them to mainstream, and unfortunately if that doesn't work out, their specialist place may have been taken by another child.

Are you always so dramatic?

How revolting.

Your school is breaking the law. Children are entitled to have full time education, and manifestly copying the same lines is not education - GCSE English doesn't require that. The official guidance says that work set for children in isolation should be educational.

If your school is trying to teach children to follow the rules, it isn't a great look that they're not following the rules themselves.

Scotland is following the practice of most schools in Europe. It's unusual to have the practice of chucking children out to the extent that we have in England, and schools in Europe do seem to manage fine. If it's not working in Scotland, they need to be taking a long hard look at why that is.

I think part of the problem is parents refusing to believe their children could do anything wrong. I used to teach Year 1 and once had complaints about bullying of one girl by two boys - reported to me by the girl's mother and also the mother of another, very reliable child who had seen some bullying in the playground when I wasn't on duty.

I spoke to both boys' parents separately. One set were mortified that their son could be being mean, were questioning how they'd brought him up to behave like that, were apologetic etc. The other set totally shot down any suggestion that their son could have behaved like that and refused to speak to him about it. Fortunately, with them all being only 5 and 6 I was able to nip it in the bud through an emphasis on noticing the children being kind at school, but it is disheartening for teachers when you try to work with parents and they won't believe their children have done anything wrong.

My kids always know that if I am told anything about their behaviour that has been witnessed by reliable people that I will believe those people! The odd time they've had a detention and refused to admit they'd done anything wrong so I emailed the teachers for clarification and of course there were very clear reasons, of which I then reminded my children!

I agree with you on this. The amount of posts on here about ‘always believe your children’ is wild. Children lie. They don’t like getting in trouble, so they lie. It’s not a failing as long as they are learning that it’s wrong.
Obviously believe them and show them you have their back on serious matters, but why would you argue with a teacher who’s telling you your child said something mean to another child today/was chatting in class/wasn’t listening to the teacher so they got in trouble? What does the teacher get out of lying about that? It’s baffling.

Punishment is always about pain and humiliation. Adults who have power "hurt" a child and expect that this will help the child have good behavior. But it doesn't work. Punishments never work. Or rather, they work, but not in the way adults expect. Punishment teaches a child not to improve behavior, but to avoid getting caught. Bad behavior always has a reason. By correcting the reason, the behavior can be corrected. Children with bad behavior will not improve if they are excluded. But these bad behaved children will become bad behaved adults and they will live with us and our adult children. Therefore, it is beneficial for all of us that the school does not punish these children, but helps them cope with the problems that cause this bad behavior.